Author Topic: Doubles Tournament Feedback  (Read 6891 times)

keithb

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Re: Doubles Tournament Feedback
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2014, 03:57:04 PM »
Keith, it's cool that you like fantasy, but there's no need to keep bringing it up in the 40k thread. 7th is really good, the biggest criticisms seem to be the Lords of War and the objective cards.. other then that it looks like a solid edition.

Yes, and fixing those little issues is "comp".... and there is nothing wrong with that.

keithb

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Re: Doubles Tournament Feedback
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2014, 03:58:56 PM »
as One Of The Superheavy Players I Admittedly Disagre With What Is Said. Yes They Are Very Powerful, But That Isn't The Players Fault. If We Took Four Lemon Russe Instead  We Would Have Had More Fire Power Than Either Superheavy. And It Would Have Been More Advantages To Us As We Could Have Better Fire targets. Also The Fact Of The Matter Is, If You Killed All 30 Of Our Other Guys, We Could Have Not Win The Match Since We Would Not Have Been Able To Bold Objectives Well. I've Playe Against SuperheavIes In 1850 WithouT One And Won By Objectives. Also There Are Combos Far Worse outthEre Than Them. 2+ Rerollable Saves? Really? Anyone Who Played Against Us And Uses That Combo Normally KnowsExactly How People Feel When They Play Against That. The Fact Of The Matter Is You Restrict All Broken Ideas Or None Of Them. Look At It Like This. At 1850 It'sEntirely Possible To One Round A Warhound. Your Entire Army shooting At Seerstar Removed A Bike A Turn On Average. YouWillComplain About Big New Models, But Not Complain  About AutoWins?

I am going to guess this was written either on a phone or some device featured on ancient aliens.

Grimwulfe

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Re: Doubles Tournament Feedback
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2014, 03:59:51 PM »
as One Of The Superheavy Players I Admittedly Disagre With What Is Said. Yes They Are Very Powerful, But That Isn't The Players Fault. If We Took Four Lemon Russe Instead  We Would Have Had More Fire Power Than Either Superheavy. And It Would Have Been More Advantages To Us As We Could Have Better Fire targets. Also The Fact Of The Matter Is, If You Killed All 30 Of Our Other Guys, We Could Have Not Win The Match Since We Would Not Have Been Able To Bold Objectives Well. I've Playe Against SuperheavIes In 1850 WithouT One And Won By Objectives. Also There Are Combos Far Worse outthEre Than Them. 2+ Rerollable Saves? Really? Anyone Who Played Against Us And Uses That Combo Normally KnowsExactly How People Feel When They Play Against That. The Fact Of The Matter Is You Restrict All Broken Ideas Or None Of Them. Look At It Like This. At 1850 It'sEntirely Possible To One Round A Warhound. Your Entire Army shooting At Seerstar Removed A Bike A Turn On Average. YouWillComplain About Big New Models, But Not Complain  About AutoWins?

Your post makes my eyes bleed.  Aside from that, no we complain about seer star as well.  I definitely don't see the need to be an all or nothing fix.  Slight tweaks is the way to go.  Like for LOW putting together point maxs or an approved list would go a long way on them being accepted in general.  Out right banning all LOW wouldn't help.


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keithb

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Re: Doubles Tournament Feedback
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2014, 04:01:53 PM »
Keith, it's cool that you like fantasy, but there's no need to keep bringing it up in the 40k thread. 7th is really good, the biggest criticisms seem to be the Lords of War and the objective cards.. other then that it looks like a solid edition.

As much as I hate to agree with Keith I do.  He mentions Fantasy because they have gone through the EXACT thing 40k is going through now.  They had to adjust the game to make it better.  Are we not talking about the same thing? 

Since he plays both he has an even better idea on how fantasy can relate to 40k and what 40k has to learn from Fantasy.  I would advise not to immediately dismiss his thoughts or statements because they mention Fantasy but rather try to see them from his point and maybe learn from SOME of them.

LOL cant believe I just said that.  Overall I think minor tweaks are needed to make this edition a very solid game I am looking forward to how things move forward at a BG level and a GT level.

Exactly.

You might even notice I haven't made any suggestions or comments on what 'should' change or even if there should be changes.  Only that claiming "change = bad, because change!" Is silly.  Keep an open mind, take stock of how things go.

With 8th ed fantasy (Oh Noes, I said the bad word again!), everyone kind of waited 60 or so days and played 1 GT before many TOs decided to implement some levels of comp.   This was done primarily at the request of the players who attend their tournaments.

AstartesXXVI

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Re: Doubles Tournament Feedback
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2014, 05:59:09 PM »
You really don't need to take it that far.

Lords of War will be okay with a point cap of some kind that is percentage-based, it will keep out the ridiculous stuff and keep in the lower-end things in a nice simple way.

Chase mentioned to me at a point that the doubles was meant to be fun and less competitive, and that potentially a singles event would be the hardcore bit. In that regard, I didn't really think the cards were a bad thing at all -- they kept our games pretty lively and interesting. I have a bit of a different view than most people, I suppose, but to me when I saw another team get a good draw that came up big for them, it was no different to me than when I saw a team get a great dice roll, or win a close combat, etc. I can see how it would suck if you dominated your opponent but they still won by a landslide with the cards...but I don't see that happening much.

I'm a firm believer that simple fixes are the best fixes. If there is a problem with the cards, it would be better to limit them in some way then to axe them entirely. They make a lot of the things in the game that rock on pure power level become marginalized (2++ units who don't get points for the objective they stormed, for example). It really forces you to control the board and try to fight effectively in a few places at once, which I thought made our games better in most cases.

In our second match it felt like we were doing great but when ended up losing by a margin purely because of the cards drawn by our opponent on the last turn. Capping on the GAME turn instead of player turn adds a LOT of power to the second player, because they have the ability to deny player one but player one will never have the ability to deny player two (realistically, anyway). I'd argue that would be less fair at times than random cards for both players.

You could also just say that people can only cap one card each turn. That might stave off the big draws a bit. Or maybe max the amount of VP you can get off of them as a lot. Or maybe make it so they aren't able to be scored if you have a certain lead, so that the score stays close. I don't know, I'm just throwing out random ideas here, but I guess my ultimate point is long-term I'd tweak the cards rather than ditch them.

More importantly: I think for the kind of "cas-com" bracket, this was a great event, and if you're looking for a format that will bring in a broader audience outside the strictly competitive circuit, just limiting the Lords of War to a percentage to keep stuff like Reaver Titans off the table would probably suffice, if you are looking to cater to a more competitive crowd, I'd tweak the cards to be more fair/less valuable (maybe just a secondary or tertiary? Just a thought).

Everyone we played was excellent and we had three great games. It was great to see a good turnout!
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MM3791

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Re: Doubles Tournament Feedback
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2014, 10:05:44 PM »
I think if Kill Points were added in every mission as part of the primary objective, then it would greatly balance out the Tex'm cards. That way even if you get a bad hand, a good player can still blow up stuff to help level the points off-set. When a game sells itself on the phrase "In the grim, dark future.. there is only war" I would kinda expect killing stuff to actually matter.

Ian Mulligan

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Re: Doubles Tournament Feedback
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2014, 10:20:30 PM »
Kill Points in every mission very much affects army construction. I would encourage a lot of thought before involving them to that degree.

Unless of course the idea is to push one type of play above all others. Like, maybe a small elite army like Grey Knights. In that case, this is a phenomenal idea.
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MM3791

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Re: Doubles Tournament Feedback
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2014, 11:00:01 PM »
Kill Points in every mission very much affects army construction. I would encourage a lot of thought before involving them to that degree.

Unless of course the idea is to push one type of play above all others. Like, maybe a small elite army like Grey Knights. In that case, this is a phenomenal idea.

Do you think Grey Knights can put out more damage per turn then Tau, Eldar, AM, or IK? On the flip side small elite armies can't afford to take heavy casualties.. like at all. I see your point but I'm not sold, either way it's worth a try.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 11:01:56 PM by MM3791 »

Ian Mulligan

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Re: Doubles Tournament Feedback
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2014, 11:56:50 PM »
I, too, like randomly reaching for a solution without spending time thinking of consequences.
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MM3791

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Re: Doubles Tournament Feedback
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2014, 12:07:48 AM »
I, too, like randomly reaching for a solution without spending time thinking of consequences.

It wasn't random, I lost the other day even after inflicting mass genocide on the other army. Either way you cut it the cards are not balanced. But I'd be interested in starting a poll and seeing what is the consensus.

Ian Mulligan

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Re: Doubles Tournament Feedback
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2014, 12:09:16 AM »
Its good that you found a way to change the rules that would help your tournament performance.
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MM3791

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Re: Doubles Tournament Feedback
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2014, 12:10:59 AM »
Well in that case let's not add any comps at all. You can't have it both ways.

Tsilber

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Re: Doubles Tournament Feedback
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2014, 12:18:32 AM »
  Play by the book, add restrictions or not, add modified scenarios.... In the end someone is going to be upset and sadly Chase cant please everyone. This was a feedback requested, not another forum for us to pick each others post apart and bicker. Chase whatever event restrictions you run I enjoy your events and will continue to come to them, a store 10 minutes from my house had a tournament on Saturday and I drove 2 hours to yours, so take that for what its worth.  Even when you nerfed invisibility, i simply changed my list from Bel'Akor who I always run, to try out fateweaver who I never ran before.
   Just remember this Chase. Regardless of the rules, edition, comp, restrictions or whatever else you add or take out or modify.... People who are competitive will find a way to play at that competitive level; people who love the game and play for fun, will continue to play for fun and find love in the game; and people who find reasons to complain or be upset about something, will still find reason to complain and be upset. The Rules or Restriction are of minimal relevance.

Chase

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Re: Doubles Tournament Feedback
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2014, 12:32:23 AM »
  Play by the book, add restrictions or not, add modified scenarios.... In the end someone is going to be upset and sadly Chase cant please everyone. This was a feedback requested, not another forum for us to pick each others post apart and bicker. Chase whatever event restrictions you run I enjoy your events and will continue to come to them, a store 10 minutes from my house had a tournament on Saturday and I drove 2 hours to yours, so take that for what its worth.  Even when you nerfed invisibility, i simply changed my list from Bel'Akor who I always run, to try out fateweaver who I never ran before.
   Just remember this Chase. Regardless of the rules, edition, comp, restrictions or whatever else you add or take out or modify.... People who are competitive will find a way to play at that competitive level; people who love the game and play for fun, will continue to play for fun and find love in the game; and people who find reasons to complain or be upset about something, will still find reason to complain and be upset. The Rules or Restriction are of minimal relevance.

There's a lot of wisdom in this post.  Thanks, Todd.
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Admech

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Re: Doubles Tournament Feedback
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2014, 08:36:48 AM »
For objective cards
use them as a finite deck shared between the teams where the objectives cannot be repeated nor duplicated

we kept being able to score multiple objectives in each turn with ease. Not very fair to other team

super heavies,
I came expecting to have to deal with one, and hordes, I think keeping them as an ever present threat means that you have to equip to deal
or suffer the consequences