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Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: Rob S on June 10, 2010, 11:30:39 PM

Title: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: Rob S on June 10, 2010, 11:30:39 PM
Quote
Rob,

 

     The Vindicator for any army fires the ordinance blast. If you have any more questions or need any further assistance to make your hobby experience any better, give us a call or e-mail.

 

Thanks!

 

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Customer Service Specialist

 

Please do not delete previous email threads as this will help us serve you better!

 

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From: wakeofasmile@aim.com [mailto:wakeofasmile@aim.com]
Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 8:08 PM
To: US Customer Service
Subject: Rules Inquiry

 

Does the Blood Angels Vindicator's Demolisher cannon fire a large blast template or a single, non-blast shot?

The rules at the base level seem to imply that it fires the blast template, but I would appreciate a quick yes or no from Games Workshop to confirm this to the people who think otherwise.

Thanks for your time,
Rob Sims

It's good to see that common sense eludes some people in this store.  Between common sense, a close examination of the rules (the heading problem I showed to Chase), and finally this, I hope people can just... shut the hell up.  I'll gladly print out a screenshot of the email for anybody who worries that they will play against petty opponents until the FAQ is released.
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: Rurouni Benshin on June 10, 2010, 11:43:51 PM
Well played, sir...  ;)
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: skavengear on June 11, 2010, 12:58:58 AM
YES PRAISE SANGUINUS!!! VICTORY AT LAST! i just got soooooo happy   :o

in your face over logical smart people with rules-savvy :P
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: Logan007 on June 11, 2010, 01:05:08 AM
I think someone should ask them that same question again and see how they reply.
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: skavengear on June 11, 2010, 01:14:27 AM
i actually got the same email, i sent back "even the blood angel one?" to make sure, but just think, why should we have to pay 30 more for a less effective vehicle? the defense was it doesnt scatter, but a template like that is often far worse.

i challenge evryone i played with the wimpy vindicator to a rematch for veneance and honor!  ;)
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: the_trooper on June 11, 2010, 08:10:21 AM
I think someone should ask them that same question again and see how they reply.

GW's rules people are notoriously inconsistent.  I think the email hurts your arguement.  :P
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: Moosifer on June 11, 2010, 08:28:44 AM
I think someone should ask them that same question again and see how they reply.

GW's rules people are notoriously inconsistent.  I think the email hurts your arguement.  :P

^^^^
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: Rob S on June 11, 2010, 08:29:48 AM
I think someone should ask them that same question again and see how they reply.

You and Rich are thinking of the days when people would call the shipping centers and ask them questions.  They would talk to the people whose only connection to the rules were that they sat around all day reading codexes because they had nothing else to do between organizing shipments.  This person is not the same as them.

Further, a member on a discussion on BolterandChainsword about this emailed Paul S (I can't remember his last name at the moment), a name listed IN the Blood Angels codex and got the same answer.  You gonna tell me he isn't reliable either?

I'm pretty sure I've found that even RAW supports that it's a blast, I just liked that this was extra support to it.  And I really hope nobody at Battleground will ever deny someone their blast now.

As an aside, the 4th ed. BA codex (the White Dwarf pdf) never had blast either.  I don't remember any problems being raised then.  :-\
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: the_trooper on June 11, 2010, 08:36:47 AM
I think someone should ask them that same question again and see how they reply.

You and Rich are thinking of the days when people would call the shipping centers and ask them questions.  They would talk to the people whose only connection to the rules were that they sat around all day reading codexes because they had nothing else to do between organizing shipments.  This person is not the same as them.

Further, a member on a discussion on BolterandChainsword about this emailed Paul S (I can't remember his last name at the moment), a name listed IN the Blood Angels codex and got the same answer.  You gonna tell me he isn't reliable either?

I'm pretty sure I've found that even RAW supports that it's a blast, I just liked that this was extra support to it.  And I really hope nobody at Battleground will ever deny someone their blast now.

As an aside, the 4th ed. BA codex (the White Dwarf pdf) never had blast either.  I don't remember any problems being raised then.  :-\

Bolter and chainsword bans people for flipping cars.
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: Ian Mulligan on June 11, 2010, 08:44:04 AM
I think someone should ask them that same question again and see how they reply.

You and Rich are thinking of the days when people would call the shipping centers and ask them questions.  They would talk to the people whose only connection to the rules were that they sat around all day reading codexes because they had nothing else to do between organizing shipments.  This person is not the same as them.

Further, a member on a discussion on BolterandChainsword about this emailed Paul S (I can't remember his last name at the moment), a name listed IN the Blood Angels codex and got the same answer.  You gonna tell me he isn't reliable either?

I'm pretty sure I've found that even RAW supports that it's a blast, I just liked that this was extra support to it.  And I really hope nobody at Battleground will ever deny someone their blast now.

As an aside, the 4th ed. BA codex (the White Dwarf pdf) never had blast either.  I don't remember any problems being raised then.  :-\

Bolter and chainsword bans people for flipping cars.
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: Rob S on June 11, 2010, 09:16:17 AM

Bolter and chainsword bans people for flipping cars.

So does the government.
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: the_trooper on June 11, 2010, 02:45:45 PM

Bolter and chainsword bans people for flipping cars.

So does the government.

This is why we must get Orly Taitz elected, so she can fix that!
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: skavengear on June 11, 2010, 03:52:45 PM
is it really SO horrific to allow blood angels to have a blast like every other space marine. its common sense. were still space marines at heart and im sure that we would use the same weapons as vanillas, we just have lucifer engines that cost more.

i dont understand how people find the stuff in my codex broken, sure we have cool stuff, but so does everybody else. theres nothing i see that threatens anyone more then stuff in other codexes. whats the big deal we have mixed up orginisation slots? is that the worst gw can do?
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: Serring on June 11, 2010, 04:43:03 PM
is that the worst gw can do?
Not by a long shot.
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: Lady GaGa on June 11, 2010, 05:33:23 PM
WTF pwned
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: jesterofthedark on June 11, 2010, 06:51:10 PM
Dave,

I don't think giving a blast to BA marines is at all bad, its like you said they have a majority of the same equipment that the regular marines get.  But, before you go and say that they are not over powered you might want to hold your tongue.  Just because you can't pwn with the army does not mean that they are not bringing some cheese.  Ex, A librarian dreadnought with a psychic hood and a force weapon? Why? Also Access to deep striking tanks? Fast moving vehicles that are slow and cumbersome for other armies? Assault marines with a 2+ save? You have a Predator as a fast attack choice?

Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: Rob S on June 11, 2010, 08:16:31 PM
Dave,

I don't think giving a blast to BA marines is at all bad, its like you said they have a majority of the same equipment that the regular marines get.  But, before you go and say that they are not over powered you might want to hold your tongue.  Just because you can't pwn with the army does not mean that they are not bringing some cheese.  Ex, A librarian dreadnought with a psychic hood and a force weapon? Why? Also Access to deep striking tanks? Fast moving vehicles that are slow and cumbersome for other armies? Assault marines with a 2+ save? You have a Predator as a fast attack choice?



Kevin is a smart one, listen to him.  Your army is cheesy, but I'd much rather fight it the way it should be (even in a tournament setting), than the way people are trying to make it.

That said, if any of you field it against me in a tournament, no matter the TO's ruling, I'll let you use the blast. :)
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: Grand Master Steve on June 11, 2010, 08:39:37 PM
Would also help if you get actual marines instead of Skaven to represent your models ;)
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: Moosifer on June 11, 2010, 08:41:00 PM
Blast, which means teh small template not the large blast correct?

Small blast makes much more sense...
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: jesterofthedark on June 11, 2010, 08:59:57 PM
I agree with Rob, I wouldn't argue a large blast vindicator.  I would also gladly face this army any day of the week, vindicator or no vindicator.

I firmly believe the most lethal forces can be lead astray by the most inept of generals.......

No offense. ;)
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: skavengear on June 11, 2010, 10:41:42 PM
Would also help if you get actual marines instead of Skaven to represent your models ;)

shh those are snipers scouts

i dont see why a librarian dreadnought is bad ass, it hasnt won me nothing special.

the most pondering thing to me is why its so "cheesey" that we get different slots for our stuff. im not saying it doesnt fit together well and all but i dont see where it makes a difference.

by the way my assault marines have a 3+ save... unless you mean the sanguinary guard, its because they cost 225 points minimum and dont have invulnerable saves and is 5 models no more or less. they seemed cool to me too since dante coul make them scoring but alot of people said they suck

besides im not a bad general, im learning  ;)
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: Ed on June 11, 2010, 11:06:37 PM
yes they aren't worth it and dante isn't worth it
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: skavengear on June 12, 2010, 12:11:48 AM
lets not go that far, dante is real good, he takes a wound, ws, attack, and initiative off an independant character, makes people strike him at ws 1, surgical strikes, and has good wargear which actually costs alot more when you add it up (infernus is 15, the axe is like 25, jump pack is 25, death mask is 5, etc...) and the guard isnt great as an elite but if you have dante, theyre a very strong troop choice. yes, its = 500 points to have 6 good models to do so, but hey, life is 500 points ;D

plus you run mechanised stuff so you have a different perspective  ;)
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: Serring on June 12, 2010, 12:17:05 AM
It basically comes done to how you use the stuff on how good they are. Some people use things different ways and are better using certian models than others.
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: skavengear on June 12, 2010, 12:22:10 AM
i think ill just buy them. they seem really nifty as scoring units, plus death masks almost* make up for the no invulnerable save, besides name me a sm troop choice with a valid invulnerable save?






* the death masks in no way are as good as invulnerable saves unless you manage to make your opponent roll horrible, in which case it is still only a 5+ to hit and X+ to wound.
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: Chase on June 12, 2010, 12:24:26 AM
The models look totally badass.  That's reason enough to buy them.

They even look badass in the ever-so-popular "sprue grey" color scheme.
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: skavengear on June 12, 2010, 01:02:14 AM
The models look totally badass.  That's reason enough to buy them.

They even look badass in the ever-so-popular "sprue grey" color scheme.

my favorite color!  :o

i take it chase likes all blood thirsty angels
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: Rob S on June 12, 2010, 01:54:55 AM
The models look totally badass.  That's reason enough to buy them.

They even look badass in the ever-so-popular "sprue grey" color scheme.

my favorite color!  :o

i take it chase likes all blood thirsty angels

Chase likes anything that gets bought. ;)
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: skavengear on June 12, 2010, 03:01:57 AM


Chase likes anything that gets bought. ;)
[/quote]

so why does he like the sanguinary guard who has had <= one sale? if he liked sales, hed just give me them for $1.00  ;D
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: Opforce3 on June 12, 2010, 05:44:04 AM
I just want to make sure that the argument over the vindicator's cannon is closed, because it was kind of garbage to begin with. Gw-guy used common sense to solve a rules dispute. If they do it, why shouldn't we...
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: Chase on June 12, 2010, 07:44:43 AM
It's closed.

If you take the time to sit down and read the all of the entries in the book the answer is there.  RAW say that weapons called "Ordnance" use the large blast marker unless it specifies otherwise.  Couple this with the fact that there is no such thing as "Ordnance Blast" in the rules anywhere and it becomes even more clear.


There are two types of ordnance weapons in 40k, they are referred to as:

Ordnance - which fires a large blast marker unless it specifies otherwise (ex: the IG Tank Hunter and the Valk Hellstrike Missile) and...

Ordnance Barrage - which does whatever the hell it does.


I could get into this whole long thing about the writer of the SM and BA codex, how he literally just copy and pasted the Vindicator entry, how the fact that Ordnance implies a large blast marker, how GW's mistake was adding in the "Large Blast" thing to some entries and not others, How it's (it is) redundant and only confuses the issue, how GW writes some shitty rules, how easy it is for people to twist or attempt to twist things, how the entry on page 58 should have simply left out the word "blast" in the first place, and how it can be read one of two ways which just adds to confusion... "[ordnance blast] weapons" which don't having a heading in the rules or "ordnance [blast weapons]", but it's (it is) 6:40am, I've got to be at the store in a couple hours to run Ard Boyz Semis, and I've had ~2 hours sleep.

Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: Ed on June 12, 2010, 11:15:41 AM
Ok this is cool I'm gonna make my vendetta a valkyrie cause I was told its a single shot also like this gun
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: Chase on June 12, 2010, 11:44:26 AM
If you're speaking about the Valks missile it has errata that specifies it's a single shot Ordnance weapon.
Title: Re: The Blood Angels Vindicator
Post by: Rob S on June 12, 2010, 12:06:33 PM
Thank you Chase for spending the time to write it all out.

Anyway, I'm closing this.  I simply wanted to point out the response from Games Workshop.  Stay thirsty, my friends.