Battleground Games Forum
Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: Ragnar on July 01, 2010, 12:43:06 AM
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Alright, there has been a bit of discussion and debate over the topics of broken armies, unbeatable units, and ridiculously unkillable army lists. Well, to settle that debate, I present to you Codex: Imperial Guard, 5th Edition. With a medley of units which, on their own are arguable unbeatable, Codex: Imperial Guard combines firepower to table any opponent (aside from reserve armies) turn 1 or turn 2 (reserve armies will be tabled 1-2 turns after all their stuff arrives :P)
so, what is this list? you may ask. well, it is 2,500 points, but is perfectly scalable to other points sizes if you keep the same flow through it. the list is undeniably unkillable, however, only at 2,500. no other army even has a chance. Oh, and yes, it costs a boatload of cash. With the recent price increase, i'd estimate around 800 dollars. To quote an earlier post: using GW's motto for a game system, yes money can buy you victory.
So, without further adieu, the list:
CCS, 4 Melta, Chimera, Hull HF 145
CCS, 4 Melta, Chimera, Hull HF 145
PBS , 4 Extra, Chimera, Hull HF 155
10 Vets, 3 Plasma, Chimera, Hull HF 170
PCS, 4 Flamers, Chimera, Hull HF 105
Infantry Squad, Autocannon, Flamer, Chimera, Hull HF 115
Infantry Squad, Autocannon, Flamer, Chimera, Hull HF 115
Autocannon HWT 75
Autocannon HWT 75
Autocannon HWT 75
2 Vendettas, HBs 280
2 Vendettas, HBs 280
2 Vendettas, HBs 280
Manticore 160
Manticore 160
Manticore 160
2495
anybody who'd even like to fancy this list at anything but unbeatable, here; join vassal. test play it right now! prove me wrong ;)
(here's the link to testplaying 40k online. if i had 800 dollars to spend, what in sam-hell makes you think i would be spending it on GW products?)
http://www.miniwargaming.com/content/oXa5UrAGpfJG
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i'd use
9 hydra's or a fast army like bikes get with in 24" the core will not fire
1 squad of melta vets? i'd run 3+
I trust meltas over str 10 and 9 any day.
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Bikes? ok, you'd be under the manti range *if* you beat it to my lines. once you've done that, you have PBS to deal with, along with a ridiculous amount of firepower not including manticores. something like 7 heavy flamers, 4 flamers, 18 twin-linked lascannons, 12 twin linked heavy bolters, need i go on? if you manage to get first turn, and if i didn't deploy manticores out of range/sight of your hydras, you'd be getting those 18 TL lascannons on the battery right quick. your entire army will be immobile after the army's 1st shooting phase. any meltas u got.....completely useless after that.
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ork bikes have a 4+ cover save
i have no tanks at all
autocannons dont auto kill me so i get fnp
you have to also think about your stuff my never come on the table its all about rolls
and if i live from that torrent it sounds like none of your tanks have moved cause they are not fast so id auto hit you in cc with pks
hydras have 72" range so the whole table so it will have to be sight
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its certainly a solid list, but not unbeatable, no army is unbeatable, for example ed's bikers, my death company and furioso librarian in a stormraven, khorne daemons, or even CSM with nurgles or khorne berserkers. what happens if something hits your frontline? :o
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I remain unimpressed.
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I just put the list together on Army Builder, and you're actually at 2505 points. Your Infantry Squads with Autocannons and Flamers are actually 120 points each...
That aside, it does look like a competitive list. I think the only area where it would run into trouble is the fact that a lot of your infantry units rely on line of sight and at being within relative close range to be effective. That could make it hard for you to focus fire on certain units. However, intangibles aside, the list looks pretty good.
Unbeatable....? That remains to be seen...
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You only have 7 chimera's that's not unbeatable ;D
This just looks like its a variation on the leafblower list. Like most people have said tough but not unstopable. I play a similiar list with more chimera's and the tough armies to beat;
-tyranids with multiple T6 W6 3+ save model's i.e. multiple tervigon's/trygon's.
-people can beat/tie the list by holding everything in reserve.
-a high model count assault army deployed up far as it can and going 1st i.e. horde orks/all jump or heavy cav SW/BA
-Bad dice rolls
-a good general
-The list can go on and on but I'm at work :)
Tough army yes unbeatable no.
Now an all gretchin army on the other hand unbeatable!
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Now an all gretchin army on the other hand unbeatable!
A friend of mine actually played an All Boyz/Gretchin/Nobz list without any vehicles, except for Killa Kanz in my local 'Ard Boyz tourney, and took first with it. He then went to Round 2, and finished 3rd overall, and is going to Chicago for the finals now. Judging from the way he played in Round 1, I didn't think there'd be anyway of beating him. That's the closest to an unbeatable list I've ever seen.
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that list benshin mentions is a take on kan wall, but imo must have all shootas (squads of 30) and 2 meks w/ KFF with max kans and 2 dreads to be effective. that is a good list, one of 2 competitive ork builds, but that list will get completely and utterly demolished by guard. oh, if any of you wants to try to prove me wrong that the list is unbeatable, *please*, i implore you, PM me, play a game of vassal, try any army you want against it.
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See that's what I'm talking about Grot rebellion on the way;
HQ.Mad Doc Grotsnik
HQ.BigMek w/Kustom Force Field
T:30grots w/3xRuntherd (x6)
F:3xRokkitBuggies (x3) or 9xDeffKoptas (probably better than buggies)
H:3xkannons' with Runtzherder +6grots (x3)
That's 1544 points (points could be slightly off going by memory)
models=300
for 2500pts I'd dump the rest in meganobz in trukks or nobz in battle wagons.
You could fill the whole force org chart and have left over points to tell your opponent I took less points and I'm gonna woop ya.
;D
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this guard list doesnt have the inq deepstrike def
or even vs deathwing or loganwing how will you def from that
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First... Ragnar who are you...
Second... No list is unbeatable...
Third... Talking crap will get you no where, play the game the way its supposed to be played (as in on the table) or STFU.
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I think you're going to be hard pressed to find someone here who is up for playing on vassal.
Are the 6x Vendettas generally better than however many more Chimeras loaded with who knows what?
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Vendettas are very preferable to chimeras due to their firepower, blocking ability, and mobility. yes, multilasers are great and that's why there are so many chimeras in the list. the vendettas are just fantastic in their roles as gunships and an all-round everything killer.
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vendetta's also;
-Twice the cost of chimera
-Very hard to give/get cover save
By blocking do you mean movement blocking? 2 chimera's would be better at this as well.
I'm not knocking Vendetta's they are good but generally people use 1 maybe 2, I think at the 'ard boyz level of points youd be better with more chimera's loaded with troop's (line squads/veterans) to contest/claim objective's, and using the 1 or 2 as tank killer patrol or outflanking them.
Most people I know think Vassal is cool but enjoy the tactile/social experience of playing the game. If you do not have the model's make paper cut-out's or proxy. I do this all the time, and you get to make friends ;D
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I think you're going to be hard pressed to find someone here who is up for playing on vassal.
Are the 6x Vendettas generally better than however many more Chimeras loaded with who knows what?
It is questions like this from Chase that make me wonder how much longer he's going to hold out, not actually playing the game...
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ok then, i'd be glad to schedule a game with the unbeatable list against one 'champion' as it were. amongst the challengers to the claim that this list cannot be beaten, choose one person amongst you ang, hell, why not collaborate to make a list to beat it? Let me know what day works for you and I'll bring everything to proxy for my end. Sound good?
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I don't think I've ever wanted to see a list lose this badly.
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so, with that blessing, any takers? ;)
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ok so i played this list tonight and beat it so it isnt unbeatable
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Ed,
To help clarify, I think it would be nice if you provided a little detail to your game. I take it you played it on Vassal. What list did you use, and what tactics were involved?
Like Derek, I too, am anxious to see how this supposed unbeatable list was beaten. ::)
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Classic Troll. Champion dude I hope your not serious. And it looks like your theory is already bunked so have a happy life and bugger off will you I think enough dribble has been spat from you already.
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Oh look, a mech vet list. Yawn.
Also Chase, I do still have Vassal installed on my old computer. Hahaha.
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Now, now, let's try to be a little fair about this... Ragnar has, for the most part, extended a "challenge" to the BG Community. And in an effort to be sporting about it, I think he/she should at least have a chance to prove himself/herself in person.
I'm not familiar with Vassal or the concept behind it, but a face to face game with actual mini's or proxies could at least give us an enlightening experience with this debate.
However, I do think that there should be consequences for the loser... But obviously, this is something that should be discussed with the involved players.
First and foremost though, I ask that Ragnar kindly introduce himself/herself to the forums AND to the store front ASAP, if he/she is indeed serious about this. It would behoove a "Challenger" to introduce themselves, at the very least.
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wow, thank you. a respectful person on the forums is almost unheard of these days. rather than making jumps in logic over empty crevasses, benshin has done what most (not all) responders have not: read all the words presented.
Rather than going 'HEY HEY HEY!11111!!1! ITZ 4 TR0LL!!1111' he has understood what I had to say. To clarify, I'll bullet point it for reference:
-Codex IG is most 'broken' of 40K codecies
-A list from Codex IG (which I have posted) I claim to be unbeatable when I (or, rather my friend who made the list) uses it properly against any and all opposition
-*To back up my claims* (which, rather than actually proving me wrong in a game, just "Talking crap" as Grimwulf hypocritically put it) I have offered my list played against any one of you using any list you want.
I hate to be abrasive because I enjoy participating at Battlegrounds events, but with these kind of responses aside from about 4 or 5, it is warranted.
oh yeah, my name is Matt and I've been to your store often recently (maybe 6 times or so) and have participated in MTG events and went undefeated in your last doubles tourny using Orks. I guarantee most of you have at least seen me (or heard me for that matter....I like to holler realistic 'Waaaghs'). The guy who will be using the IG against you is my best friend and creator of the list. He goes by Nate and he also went undefeated in your last doubles toruny with his/my Space Wolves (we were a team if you didn't already guess). Anyways, please extend a 'champion' to accept this challenge, as it has now become. Since proxies are alright by you, I would be more than happy to play it out physically rather than on vassal.
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Alright Matt since you think im being hypocritical. I accept your challenge and look forward to dispatching you.
Undefeated means nothing to me, for one only learns from hardship. Since you like to tote your Doubles victory as your only credit to warrant the insane dribble you are spouting as the Winner of the Doubles tourny I accpet.
When and where shall this battle begin?
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Why HF on the chimera's? your sacrificing 21 heavy bolter shots a turn. In most games people will be rushing at you or against infantry horde and the heavy bolters usually will do more damage over turns than HF ever will.
I've been playing mechig since the armagedon codex, I think you have a tough list there but I see about 3 major improvements you could make it alot tougher.
;D
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Ed,
To help clarify, I think it would be nice if you provided a little detail to your game. I take it you played it on Vassal. What list did you use, and what tactics were involved?
i was counter trolling
and i played chaos last night not ig D:
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Why HF on the chimera's?
In situations where you are facing a horde army, the heavy flamers outperform heavy bolters.
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True good against hordes' when they get close. How much use would the HF really get though one maybe two rounds of firing? At that point your either hosing or getting hosed by someone and the effect is neglible
The big downside I see is the missed opportunities against MEQ, Mech armies, and shooty armies. Against MEQ you can cause wounds from a distance where the flamer has what an 8' range? against Mech you can at least glance a rhino or pen a trukk or similiar AV. Against shooty army your never gonna fire the weapon unless you rush them. Granted this is in building a list where you do not know what you are facing.
I usually put one or two HF in my mechig and its generally the chimera's hiding behind another chimera. Rarely do they get used. Granted I usually take 2 - 3 PCS squad with 4xflamers and fist therefore don't really need the HF
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Someone should post a list they feel matches up well against the list Matt feels is unbeatable.
I'm curious.
6x Vendettas seem like they would be tough to kill. I don't know anything about them other than that they have lots of guns and are considered skimmers. Are they able to take any combination of heavy weapons they want?
I know nothing about manticores other than that the model looks badass.
The rest seems like a pretty standard, "Jeff Hobin" esq. mech guard list.
In other news, can things assault out of drop pods?
Like Jeff said, a big ugly tyranid list seems like it might do well.
ps. I have no idea what I'm talking about.
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why don't you just support the store and buy the army then you'd get the real play test
sec im gonna go dress up my g.i. joe on the internet
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I'll bite, (bored at work with :30 minutes to kill)
bada@@ Tyranids 2500 (actualy 2445)
HQ:Hive Trant:
HeavyVenomCannon:, OldAdversary:
Tyrant Guard(x2) with LashWhips
T: Tervigon
Catayst:ToxinSacs: Adrenal Glands:
T: Tervigon
Catayst:ToxinSacs: Adrenal Glands:
T: Tervigon
Catayst:ToxinSacs: Adrenal Glands:
T: Termagaunts (x30)
T: Termagaunts (x30)
T: Termagaunts (w/Spinefists) (x30)
E: Hiveguard (x3)
E: Venomthrope (x3)
E: Zoenthrope (x3)
H: Trygon
H: Trygon
H: Trygon
6x T6 W6 3+ save critter's.
Basic tactic against said IG list deploy all the big critter's max distance forward near venomthrop's. Cast FNP on 3 Trygons have then move 6 run absorb fire while everything else runs up. Tervigon's flood the board with gaunts while hiveguard/zoenthrope's/tyrant provide covering fire.
As long as the gaunts have one model near the tyrant/venomthrope/tervigons they get counter attack, poison 4+, furious charge, preferred enemy, 5+ cover save, frag grenades, and the ability to have FNP cast on them, all for the low low price of 5pts per model or free if there pooped out by puppa tervigon.
I've played a smaller version of this list in which 60 gaunts and a tyrant killed a squad of SW ThunderCalvary and an attached lord in two rounds of hth using the above 'buffs. I've been wanting to play this list against mechig because I think its the one army that might slow it down.
In other news, can things assault out of drop pods?
No
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Ide think properly placed drop pods and heavy weapons with marines could drop the list. There is no such thing as "an unbeatable list"
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Now, now, let's try to be a little fair about this... Ragnar has, for the most part, extended a "challenge" to the BG Community. And in an effort to be sporting about it, I think he/she should at least have a chance to prove himself/herself in person.
I'm not familiar with Vassal or the concept behind it, but a face to face game with actual mini's or proxies could at least give us an enlightening experience with this debate.
However, I do think that there should be consequences for the loser... But obviously, this is something that should be discussed with the involved players.
First and foremost though, I ask that Ragnar kindly introduce himself/herself to the forums AND to the store front ASAP, if he/she is indeed serious about this. It would behoove a "Challenger" to introduce themselves, at the very least.
ben, not to humiliate poor ragnar but, i did it. I WON!!! :P
gabriel seth
librrian w/ stormshield
furioso librarian
sanguinary priests
terminator squad
tac squad
assault squad
death company (DOMINATED)
land raider redeemer
stormraven
vindicator
the unbeaatble list lost to a n00b, *high fives to the storm raven* ;D
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Now, now, let's try to be a little fair about this... Ragnar has, for the most part, extended a "challenge" to the BG Community. And in an effort to be sporting about it, I think he/she should at least have a chance to prove himself/herself in person.
I'm not familiar with Vassal or the concept behind it, but a face to face game with actual mini's or proxies could at least give us an enlightening experience with this debate.
However, I do think that there should be consequences for the loser... But obviously, this is something that should be discussed with the involved players.
First and foremost though, I ask that Ragnar kindly introduce himself/herself to the forums AND to the store front ASAP, if he/she is indeed serious about this. It would behoove a "Challenger" to introduce themselves, at the very least.
ben, not to humiliate poor ragnar but, i did it. I WON!!! :P
gabriel seth
librrian w/ stormshield
furioso librarian
sanguinary priests
terminator squad
tac squad
assault squad
death company (DOMINATED)
land raider redeemer
stormraven
vindicator
the unbeaatble list lost to a n00b, *high fives to the storm raven* ;D
I'm curious if this is fact or fiction.
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As am I, Derek... Dave, was this on Vassal, or are you just "counter trolling"? :P
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I have a question.
Regardless of how "unbeatable" an army list is supposed to be, doesn't it still fail when you can't roll well?
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I have a question.
Regardless of how "unbeatable" an army list is supposed to be, doesn't it still fail when you can't roll well?
Yes.
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why would i make it up i dont have anything to gain from winning a vassal game or not, i just thought it is pretty cool so i did it ;D
if it makes any difference, my old list lost :'(
while were on the track of broken/unbeatable, what is lysander and vulkan and why have i heard so much about them but never seen them beyond the gw site? are they really THAT broke?
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It's easy to steam roll in this game.
Both Lysander and Vulcan are powerful but they are named characters. Imperial fists and Salamanders respectively. How many bright yellow space marines or bright green (besides Rick's) do you see around?
40k is a beer and pretzels type of game. Making it into a competition is a farce considering how poor the rules are.
"I just want an excuse to push little toy men around a table."
-Alan
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Lysander and Vulkan are not "broken", just very tough to fight against.
Lysander has the same stat line as Calgar, except his wargear is a little different. He always strikes at Str 10 and Init 1, and if he attacks a vehicle, he adds 1 to the Vehicle Damage chart (like an AP 1 weapon). He comes in Terminator Armor and has a Storm Shield. Combine that with Eternal Warrior, and you've got a tough IC to kill. Lastly, he replaces Combat Tactics with the Stubborn ability, and any unit that he is attached to can reroll failed to hit rolls with Heavy Bolters, Bolters, Storm Bolters, and Bolt Pistols. Oh, and he also has Bolster Defenses, like a Techmarine gets.
Tough, yes. Broken, no.
Vulkan is a little less intimidating. He comes with Artificer Armor, and also has a 3+ invulnerable save, but doesn't have Eternal Warrior. He has a mastercrafted Relic Blade, with an attached Heavy Flamer. He replaces Combat Tactics with giving your entire army Twin-linked Flamers, Heavy Flamers, Meltaguns, and Multi-meltas, and also makes all Thunder Hammers mastercrafted.
Great choices for any list, and individually hard to kill, but I wouldn't go as far as to say they're broken.
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lysander sounds pretty awesome, but im sure hes up there in points. perhaps we should have a thread for votes on favorite/best hq choices :D
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40k is a beer and pretzels type of game. Making it into a competition is a farce considering how poor the rules are.
I like the way truth smells.
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isn't the fun in a game sort of the competitive aspect? i mean it wouldn't be fun if 40k was like youth soccer, everyone wins just for trying, and after we get ice cream. instead, its enjoyable to think "if im playing this army i need to buy this..." "how can i make this kill more people faster?" nobody likes to lose all the time or win all the time (maybe not so many complaints about winning). its fun to be a little cutthroat, just as long as you don't go overboard ;D
thats why nobody wants to play with furbies any more...
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This topic and the way people approach it are why I choose not to play.
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isn't the fun in a game sort of the competitive aspect? i mean it wouldn't be fun if 40k was like youth soccer, everyone wins just for trying, and after we get ice cream. instead, its enjoyable to think "if im playing this army i need to buy this..." "how can i make this kill more people faster?" nobody likes to lose all the time or win all the time (maybe not so many complaints about winning). its fun to be a little cutthroat, just as long as you don't go overboard ;D
thats why nobody wants to play with furbies any more...
When I first started playing, I would play against only 3 players, Mike (space marines), Chris(necrons) and Derek(orks) the latter two you may never meet but the first is in NY. We were learning basic concepts of 40k and how the mechanics worked. We would tried the most nutso combos we could dig out because it was fun and we were all doing it. So it became apparent that having berserkers (old chain-axes!) were particularly devastating as we the ability to roll combats into each other while bloodletters could be summoned right into combat.... etc. It became stale.
How many times can one stomp on a necron player and have it be fun? Since it was 4th edition at the time, Derek's Orks were pretty terrible so it wasn't much competition. Mike was the only one that could keep stride with all the stuff I would pull. The reason Mike was the only one that could put up a fight was because of the relative power of the codecies.
Derek and Chris don't play 40k any more. Causation != correlation and all that.
Some people only like playing against painted armies. Some people like smashing face constantly. Some people like being fluff maniacs.
It's a mindset thing. I prefer a relatively even fight when I play 40k. If I think my opponent might be gearing up for a fight, I won't disappoint them. The power creep / poor rules hurt balance of the game. Citadel is a modelling company that just so happens to make rules for their models.
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i agree, everyone has their niche. i prefer the face pummeling (when it happens) :P but ive been learning to paint and its pretty fun so far, once i get more paint i will start the flesh tearers. all i have to learn is the cackling lightning effects of weapons (for my kickass force weapon) 8)
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This topic and the way people approach it are why I choose not to play.
This is why I havent played lately either. Im not a fan of this attitude.
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This topic and the way people approach it are why I choose not to play.
This is why I havent played lately either. Im not a fan of this attitude.
Which attitude, Steve?
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The attitude of: ZOMG I must WIN TO HAVE FUN IF I DONT WIN IM NOT HAVING FUN. I NEED TO USE THE LATEST POWER CREEP CODEX TO WIN TO BEAT MY OPPONENTS!
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The attitude of: ZOMG I must WIN TO HAVE FUN IF I DONT WIN IM NOT HAVING FUN. I NEED TO USE THE LATEST POWER CREEP CODEX TO WIN TO BEAT MY OPPONENTS!
Classic! I agree tho. That's why I don't usually hang around lookin for pick up games.
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Alright Matt since you think im being hypocritical. I accept your challenge and look forward to dispatching you.
Undefeated means nothing to me, for one only learns from hardship. Since you like to tote your Doubles victory as your only credit to warrant the insane dribble you are spouting as the Winner of the Doubles tourny I accpet.
When and where shall this battle begin?
Well, I'll talk with Nate to see when we're both free. I've been away for the weekend, so have been afk. Let me know what time of day works best for you and start making your 2.5k list. I wish you the best of luck.
*edit* oh yeah, battlegrounds work for me/us if it works for you.
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For the record, Ragnar, you do have a bit of a history of being a troll on forums.
So calling you out a couple pages ago wasn't off the mark.
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the uninformed also have a history of misreading points in print. anyways, rather than arguing a worthless banter, how about we play the game? if you have a problem, ask grimwulf if he'd like to let you play in his place. if not, let my thread's credibility be tested. if you truly believe me to be wrong, then you shouldn't be complaining.
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True to form, a troll. I am aware that I am feeding the troll.
Troy can play whoever he wants. I have no desire to play you. I used to game at DP and I am well aware of you and your play style.
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and this helps conversation in a positive way how? i'm done, seeing as this will only lead to insults and subsequent injury. i'm going to converse only with people who have the desire to play 40k rather than insult others.
that said, grimwulf, even with your abrasive replies, you realize that the ultimate goal here is to play a game of 40k to prove or disprove a point. you place the game above mudslinging and i respect that. the same goes to everybody else on this forum who has taken the time to reply in order to say something other than an insult.
so, grimwulf, waiting to hear from you bud on what time works for you. just let me know.
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the problem with setting up 1 game to prove the point is that if the unbeatable list wins it is not proven unbeatable.
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the problem with setting up 1 game to prove the point is that if the unbeatable list wins it is not proven unbeatable.
This is true.
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To prove a piont you usally have to prove it multiple times. Kinda like scientists when doing an experiment; you do as many tests as possible to prove the data consistent.
Also, Ben already pionted this out, but the list you posted is 2505pts. Infatry Squad w/ autocannon, flamer and chimera is 120pts not 115pts
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on the multiple times point, on vassal (yeah i know) it has been tested out by us (mainly by nate with me watching a few times) I'd say about 15 times. It hasn't come close to losing there; in fact, it has tabled pretty much every game. It was based upon that info (which, to be fair, i never submitted to you guys in the first place, but I wasn't terribly sure if you guys even know what vassal was, never mind if you would accept it as credible for some reason) and by projected capability that the conclusion of unbeatable came about. Since it is far more difficult for us to travel, in my case, 45 minutes, and in nate's case, 75-90 minutes, to battelgrounds to test the list, I figured that we could at least try one game to build its credibility with you guys. That being said was why I asked all of you to collaborate upon building a list, rather than a single guy or a couple of guys making a list, since it would have the most input and, considering our respective driving distances, would be the most reasonable way of testing the list against the BG community.
On the points front, I'll repost the list after I've made the changes to it before the game beings; don't worry.
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I'm just curious as to why you're doing this.
Are you trying to make a point that the IG codex is the most overpowered? All codexes (codecii? Whatever.) can be overpowered. My guess is with the games you played people weren't using a list that was uber-powerful or min/maxed, just a list they thought was fun. I think the game would have been much closer if they had matched you in terms of nitpicking to the point of cheese. The point of this game is that you don't just try to make the most powerful list, you make a list that is fun for you to use and your opponent to fight. That's why Paul's miserable dice rolling doesn't stop him from playing games. You're pushing little toys around a table, this isn't the type of thing you do to crush people.
Are you just trying to win as much as you can? This isn't the type of community that does that. Again, that's why no matter what happens in games we come out happy. Because we don't play to win, we play because it's cool to see toy soldiers in war.
This is why Rich (who, I may point out, is a respected member here and not some hot-headed child [that's Lee ;D]) called you out for being a troll. Because it's entirely possible you were trying to get a rise out of putting a list like this on the forums of what you know is not a WAAC community. This isn't the game we play, and if you knew that I'm sure you would have talked about it in your posts.
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It saddens me that it seems you share no desire for winning. Yes, I enjoy the cinematic values offered by 40k and the hobbies along with it. But would you agree that the *objective* of the game is to win, as it is with all games? Why are we disappointed when we lose? Why do we so relish a close game turned in our favor? The purpose of games is to win, while the experience or road to victory is also a great part of the fun. In losing, you gain insight as to why you lost and will seek to adapt your strategy. why? to do better. what will doing better yield? winning more. it's that simple. the notion that winning isn't fun, then why are there tournaments for games?
why is there even a winner or loser? why are there even criteria for winning? games can be made with rules which end after a certain number of turns or a certain amount of time, so why do we need to even have 'objectives of the game'? it is innate human desire to win, to be victorious over an opponent. otherwise there would be no 40k tournaments, no NFL superbowls, no poker nationals, no world cup (i wouldn't mind that, actually), no global domination in Risk, no MTG world tour tournaments. Everything would be bland and PC. We don't judge here, we just play for the sake of consuming our time with no thought as to the outcome. That, my friend, is a drab world. But, I won't mind being placed across the table from an opponent to whom winning is nothing more than a word. It is just that much easier to win.
May I make a request? As much as I enjoy writing these thesis statements every two or three posts, could we try and keep this thread to the point of an uneatable list? I understand that some side points can be made off of it, but this is just getting tiring. I'd be more than happy to play a game because, to me, that is more fun than all of this banter.
To be honest, I was not aware that the BG community was so vehemently against WAAC. Knowing that, I would have been less enthusiastic in my approach. That's too bad though, in my opinion, because lack of competition breeds stagnancy. This is why it is so good to have tournaments held at gaming stores. So yes, you are right, if I had known, I would have discussed it in my posts. Touch of sarcasm mixed with the sincerity of still wanting to participate in your tournaments: forgive me for trying to win.
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Beating your average 40k player is easy since this game doesn't really draw people who are looking for a serious challenge on the table top. If you're looking for game that supports two players bringing their A game in a serious test of skills, you invested in the wrong game.
Competitive 40k is laughable based upon how flawed the rules are and the lack of any real equal footing between armies. Playing this game seriously to win is akin to hosting a Candyland tournament.
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"and this helps conversation in a positive way how? i'm done, seeing as this will only lead to insults and subsequent injury. i'm going to converse only with people who have the desire to play 40k rather than insult others."
@ Ian:
I've heard your point before and I appreciate it. I personally disagree, but it's personal opinion really, so to each his own.
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I find the people who disagree with that point typically play 40k competitively because they fail at the other games.
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Ragnar, do you also play D&D competitively? Rping is a sign of weakness, I always say.
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Wouldn't you agree, Matt, that the fluff of 40K often contradicts what a player can do on the table?
Can you pose similar examples with the other games you mentioned? Poker, Superbowls? Risk? Magic?
When was the last time you heard someone watching the Superbowl say, "Oh, in the fluff of football the Patriots would never do X."
Warhammer 40K has this to contend with and is the source for very different approaches on how the game can/should be played. That said, the majority of people at BG do play with "winning" in mind. I certainly think it's rare that someone would build a list with the INTENT of losing. However, it is VERY common at BG for people to build a list in a way that doesn't violate the spirit of the 40K universe. This is why 40K tournament players often create a degree of discord amongst a community that values the "story" above "win."
Because of this, the game philosophy supported and inspired by the infamous "Sirlin," fails to ring true with games like Warhammer, Dungeons & Dragons and that sort.
[ Sirlin article link: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html (http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html) ]
Add to all of this, claims of "unbeatable" fail to make sense in a game that requires you to roll lots of dice. Strictly speaking, you will not win if you roll like a donkey. Is that not true?
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[ Sirlin article link: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html (http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html) ]
I wish you never linked that.
Though now I can see the Magic player's mantra. ;D
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[ Sirlin article link: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html (http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html) ]
I wish you never linked that.
Though now I can see the Magic player's mantra. ;D
LOL. I had to.
It perfectly illustrates the disparity this line of thinking creates when mingled with a game with a story and a set of badly written rules.
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Beating your average 40k player is easy since this game doesn't really draw people who are looking for a serious challenge on the table top. If you're looking for game that supports two players bringing their A game in a serious test of skills, you invested in the wrong game.
Competitive 40k is laughable based upon how flawed the rules are and the lack of any real equal footing between armies.
Based on my experience (one venues worth of 40k players over years) this is exactly right.
I can't think of a single player that has come in who simply and strictly wants to win above all else, all of the time. There are certainly degrees to which people are competitive which vary day-to-day, opponent-to-opponent, or event-to-event but even the most competitive of the bunch screw around more than not.
All of the tournaments we've run over the past year or two have been absent a large percentage of our "regular" or "core" group of 40k players. Using the last Doubles event as an example, I can think of at least 10 people off the top that didn't play because they dislike any sort of "competitive" 40k. Some of them are probably best suited for it too.
To the point about a casual crowd creating a stagnant community: I can promise you the opposite is true. I've seen it time after time, game after game, year after year, where a player or group of players come around with the intent to win, win, win. The result is always the same. The better players continually have success, the limited players (skills, models, funds, time, etc) lose more often than not, the lists, decks, pieces, cards, builds, etc remain largely the same, the players all begin to lose interest because much of what goes on is predictable and un-fun, and the game entirely (or almost entirely) evaporates over a very short period of time.
The games that tend to stick around longest and have the most success (specifically at Battleground) are the games built up around a casual, "fun for all" mind set. Players sticking to fluff or "cool ideas" will probably never run out of army composition options in 40k. If they try to compete, they are limited to what? 2, 3, or 4 different lists out of 2, 3, or 4 different codices? Half of our players have 3ish armies each of which weighs in at 2-3000+ points, there's a TON of options there and it keeps them and their opponents / friends coming back to play. This is good.
Every once in a while it's fun to run a tournament and sort of raise the stakes a bit, but as I'm sure you know, Matt, even then the majority of people that do play just throw some stuff out there that they think might be fun to use.
Maybe this last gem paints the best picture....
This years 'Ard Boyz event saw something like 4 or 5 of the 40+ regular or semi-regular 40k players sign up to play. Of the 4 or 5 I think only 2 signed up because they really wanted to compete (both advanced). The others signed up because they just wanted to play in an event.
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Though now I can see the Magic player's mantra. ;D
I think this is a common misconception too. The vast majority of Magic players we have don't subscribe to Sirlin's mantra. In fact, I don't think many of them do even at the bigger events.
It blows my mind, to be honest.
It's so rare that a player will play what he/she feels is the best deck. There are plenty of reasons for this of course, but the fact remains.
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I would sincerely like to thank you guys who have made relevant and respectful points. Chase, among others, have brought up great points that I respect. In the light of what you have said, I'll refrain from trying to get competitiveness out of these forums and rather continue posting on places we have commonalities in the hobby lest random hostilities among the less...rational...members of these forums spiral into pointless name-calling. I was happy to discuss with the more intelligent members of BG on the ideas and ideals of playing to win vs. not W-ing AAC and I respect what you have to say and appreciate the effort you are putting in to preserving the community by doing so. Either way, I look forward to gaming and discussing painting and background material with that crowd who seek to explain their positions and progress fruitful conversation, rather than those who set out to throw child tantrums using only mildly more sophisticated language.
So, cheers to Chase and the gang for the valuable discussion and to grimwulf for being there to set up a game, even one of a competitive nature.
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Derrek hit the nose with a lightsabre. The store runs like that, we dont value "competitve lists or powerful lists" If you do great to each their own I always say. But you probably wont find many players willing to play against such lists. You may find players who want to play, play that list and never want to play you again afterwards for playing like that. Its just the way the people at BG play this game.
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WEnt to Philly for the weekend. Ragnar I can make time most nights and if a weekend is needed then I will have to make arrangements. Let me know what is best and I will let you know my availability.
I have 2 major GT's comming up so my time is slightly limited.
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Wouldn't you agree, Matt, that the fluff of 40K often contradicts what a player can do on the table?
When was the last time you heard someone watching the Superbowl say, "Oh, in the fluff of football the Patriots would never do X."
ironically yes in a way... but that's besides the point. i would like to play devil's advocate for a minute, since im a new player and i think the newer you are to the game the less one sided you tend to be:
i agree with mr. ragnar's intention (from what i get, although rich seems to think otherwise) of being proud of a list you have found solid and consistent. the fact is, all armies have a balancing factor which means really any army of can defeat another army on a level point base (even some of the older "out of date" ones). the argument that you could roll entirely 1s is almost never to occur, though bad luck happens. the simple truth is as soon as you label something as the best or unbeatable, it instantly becomes the target at which all others aim to prove false. im not saying im not guilty of this partly. but i posted lists for ideas to improve and wasnt looking for broken stuff, i just was wondering what people thought was so broken out of a codex i felt was great, but still no better than the rest.
i think you shouldnt feel negatively about BG for the boards, as in person things come out much more as they are intended.
what you will see is most people here are annoyed by the idea of people who constantly change their army and lists to beat everything, but they still build their list with the goal in mind of winning. for example, last week or so i played some games with ben:
ben is overall nice and easy going person, and i think i am also; i built a list to defeat the bokers (for vengeance!) so i switched up things a little to suit what i knew id be playing, and im sure he did a little too. although we did edit lists tailored to each other, we didnt concoct some laboratory where we created a list that would be no contest for the other (although it feels one sided sometimes :D)
so with that, if you enjoy WAAC (if it stands for winning at all costs), continue to do so if it makes you happy. but also think from someone like my side: i always field the same death company (10 guys; 4 powerfist bolters, 4 powerswords boltpistol, 2 thunderhammers bolters) now of course some will say what a waste, 400 points towards 10 models but it is what makes me happy playing. so dont forgt to have fun playing; if you cant have fun playing then why would you to begin with. although winning is awesome, losing is life, and its childish to only play if you can win. (which is why i literally only play if i can lose ::) ok so ive won a few, but look at my record,which i proudly post)
i hope that is a good insight ;D
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Wouldn't you agree, Matt, that the fluff of 40K often contradicts what a player can do on the table?
When was the last time you heard someone watching the Superbowl say, "Oh, in the fluff of football the Patriots would never do X."
ironically yes in a way... but that's besides the point. i would like to play devil's advocate for a minute, since im a new player and i think the newer you are to the game the less one sided you tend to be:
i agree with mr. ragnar's intention (from what i get, although rich seems to think otherwise) of being proud of a list you have found solid and consistent. the fact is, all armies have a balancing factor which means really any army of can defeat another army on a level point base (even some of the older "out of date" ones). the argument that you could roll entirely 1s is almost never to occur, though bad luck happens. the simple truth is as soon as you label something as the best or unbeatable, it instantly becomes the target at which all others aim to prove false. im not saying im not guilty of this partly. but i posted lists for ideas to improve and wasnt looking for broken stuff, i just was wondering what people thought was so broken out of a codex i felt was great, but still no better than the rest.
i think you shouldnt feel negatively about BG for the boards, as in person things come out much more as they are intended.
what you will see is most people here are annoyed by the idea of people who constantly change their army and lists to beat everything, but they still build their list with the goal in mind of winning. for example, last week or so i played some games with ben:
ben is overall nice and easy going person, and i think i am also; i built a list to defeat the bokers (for vengeance!) so i switched up things a little to suit what i knew id be playing, and im sure he did a little too. although we did edit lists tailored to each other, we didnt concoct some laboratory where we created a list that would be no contest for the other (although it feels one sided sometimes :D)
so with that, if you enjoy WAAC (if it stands for winning at all costs), continue to do so if it makes you happy. but also think from someone like my side: i always field the same death company (10 guys; 4 powerfist bolters, 4 powerswords boltpistol, 2 thunderhammers bolters) now of course some will say what a waste, 400 points towards 10 models but it is what makes me happy playing. so dont forgt to have fun playing; if you cant have fun playing then why would you to begin with. although winning is awesome, losing is life, and its childish to only play if you can win. (which is why i literally only play if i can lose ::) ok so ive won a few, but look at my record,which i proudly post)
i hope that is a good insight ;D
This is very true.
Also, I share your "pain" with a high priced 10 man unit, but using it because it's awesome to assault someone with it.
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Ya.
I'll see when nate's schedule yields him this week. I happen to be free pretty much every day and the weekend....weird as hell work schedule...
anyway, I'll let you know asap
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This is very true.
Also, I share your "pain" with a high priced 10 man unit, but using it because it's awesome to assault someone with it.
yeah but mine does not score, costs 200 bare, and im paying 220 for wargear. but yes there is no feeling better than when they (finally) assault someone and tear their flesh limb from limb ;D
also a good note is they compare to most elite choices (terminators, wolf guard, etc) which means the no scoring isnt as bad (its almost like having 4 elite slot units)
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This is very true.
Also, I share your "pain" with a high priced 10 man unit, but using it because it's awesome to assault someone with it.
yeah but mine does not score, costs 200 bare, and im paying 220 for wargear. but yes there is no feeling better than when they (finally) assault someone and tear their flesh limb from limb ;D
also a good note is they compare to most elite choices (terminators, wolf guard, etc) which means the no scoring isnt as bad (its almost like having 4 elite slot units)
Skaven I am in the same boat you are, Death Company are mean nasty and WAAAAYY to overpriced to make them effective in games outside of the 2000 point range.
If you use a regular assault squad with a Sgt and Power weapon, run a sang priest with jp behind him and viola, you have a nasty cc squad with FNP and furious charge at 200 points ;)
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actually, ive been comparing my list to the one rick fielded for ard boyz and i somehow have more manpower than he does at the same points.
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actually, ive been comparing my list to the one rick fielded for ard boyz and i somehow have more manpower than he does at the same points.
So what was my list at 'ard boyz?
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oh haha youre rick james? :D
i dont remember specifics but i asked chase if he had a copy back when he posted the results so i could have an idea of what to play. it was something along the lines of:
astorath
tycho
3 priests
death company w/lemartes
death company in a land raider
assault squad or two
but i remember it was close to the list i was going to run for doubles (minus a few points). you probably do have more but im not too too far off at 2500:
librarian (terminator armor w/ storm shield; wings of sanguinus, sanguine sword) attatched to SG
gabriel seth attatched to death company inside a stormraven
sanguinary guard (death masks, chapter banner, power fist)
sanguinary priests (jump pack, lightning claw, meltabomb; jump pack, mb, powerfist; corbulo)
attaching to assault squad, SG, and tactical squad respectively
furioso librarian (blood lance, might of heroes) in stormraven
tactical squad (meltagun, missle launcher, sgt has combiflamer and powerfist)
assault squad (2x hand flamers, sgt has a power fist)
death company x11 (4x powersword boltpistol, 4x powerfist bolter, 2x thunderhammer bolter, 1 chansword boltpistol)
vindicator with dozer blade
stormraven (extra armor, tld assault cannon, typhoon ml)
devastator squad (powerfist sgt, plasma cnnon, multimelta, lascannon, missle launcher)
this flesh tearers list has been my most (and only) successful list. so far ive played nids twice, orks, guard, and three different sm armies and won, the guard player beat me twice. any advise since youre probablly the best person to get BA advise from. ;D
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oh haha youre rick james? :D
i dont remember specifics but i asked chase if he had a copy back when he posted the results so i could have an idea of what to play. it was something along the lines of:
astorath
tycho
3 priests
death company w/lemartes
death company in a land raider
assault squad or two
but i remember it was close to the list i was going to run for doubles (minus a few points). you probably do have more but im not too too far off at 2500:
librarian (terminator armor w/ storm shield; wings of sanguinus, sanguine sword) attatched to SG
gabriel seth attatched to death company inside a stormraven
sanguinary guard (death masks, chapter banner, power fist)
sanguinary priests (jump pack, lightning claw, meltabomb; jump pack, mb, powerfist; corbulo)
attaching to assault squad, SG, and tactical squad respectively
furioso librarian (blood lance, might of heroes) in stormraven
tactical squad (meltagun, missle launcher, sgt has combiflamer and powerfist)
assault squad (2x hand flamers, sgt has a power fist)
death company x11 (4x powersword boltpistol, 4x powerfist bolter, 2x thunderhammer bolter, 1 chansword boltpistol)
vindicator with dozer blade
stormraven (extra armor, tld assault cannon, typhoon ml)
devastator squad (powerfist sgt, plasma cnnon, multimelta, lascannon, missle launcher)
this flesh tearers list has been my most (and only) successful list. so far ive played nids twice, orks, guard, and three different sm armies and won, the guard player beat me twice. any advise since youre probablly the best person to get BA advise from. ;D
Ok I have said this before and I will say this again. You need to start working out on your own why your list has no chance in an objective based mission (66%) of the time. You LOAD your list with the bells and whistles (admittedly when I was starting to play the game I did the same thing but that was 4th) and forget what wins you games.
Your list in my estimation has a touch of super unit ADD. Your List has 2 HQ, 3 Elite, 3 Troop (only 2 scoring) and 3 HQ. That means you have 4 units to every scoring unit which is bad. A smart opponent will see this when looking at your list, pick off your tact and assault squad with just plain shooting, and you have already lost your ability to win an objective based game.
'Ard Boyz lists are a bit deceptive because they are WAAC armies that you build knowing what the missions will be weeks in advance. In your standard game you have to plan for every mission instead of just one.
As for my list:
Astorath
Death Company Tycho
3x Sang Guard with JP
Furioso Lib with Wings and Shield
3x Assault Squads with Melta Pistol, Melta Gun, Power Weapon
1x 10 Man DC with 4x PW inside a LRR
1x 8 Man DC with JP, 2x PW, TH
Within the context of the first round of Ard Boyz, that was a great list to play, esp when you go up against armor like i did in the third mission
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i understand where you are coming from, that scoring units are improtant, but from what i have seen ive noticed its actually better just to try and wipeout everything that you possibly can with the goal in mind being that if there isnt an opponent standing how can they win. the way i play the list is as you can expect so far:
keep the devastators and tactical squad back, with the tac squad closer to an objective that is as far away from the enemy as possible and the dev squad in cover at a vantage poit. the stormraven and its passengers fly over to the point in the enemy line where i can make a sweep across easily (as dc often kills one thing and is left in nowhere land). the assault squad and sg are both put in reserve, this is done because a) the sg is "held for when i need to turn the tide of battle" and b) the assault squad can possibly get delayed back in reserves enough that toward the end of the battle when ive cleared the field i can just land on the objective and rout all remaining battle brothers to their side and the tac squad if it remains.
these tricks have worked well in my favor for most games. the guard player lucked out in getting DOW so he spread out his forces too far, but the other games were classic brawls between forces. i won tyranids simply by holding out that last assault squad (csd) and landed them on the objectives when the big hq thing and a few infantry were over killing the tac and dev squads.
so im happy with what i am fielding thus far. all i need to rpove myslef against is tau, dark eldar, and space wolves now before ive held victory over each army once
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I deny it!
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lol mech plague marine lol
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lol mech plague marine lol
You sir are an ass. That is all.
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so im happy with what i am fielding thus far. all i need to rpove myslef against is tau, dark eldar, and space wolves now before ive held victory over each army once
Mechanized Space Marines is the same army as my White Scars? It's as if you fought an Iyanden Eldar army and said victory over them is like victory over a Saim-Hann army.
Also, fight my Squats.
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Skaven... You want to fight wolves... I offer the Black wolves of Fenris to do battle with you...
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point is if i beat one of each doesnt that prove to an extent it is a viable list? ;D
@grimwulfe: challenge accepted!
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point is if i beat one of each doesnt that prove to an extent it is a viable list? ;D
@grimwulfe: challenge accepted!
I could use a heavy weapons list to beat an armored company, a Tyranid MC list, a terminator heavy SM list, and that's already 3 armies done. But against an infantry heavy IG list, a gaunt heavy Tyranid list, or an assaulty SM list I'm screwed. But it's good to know that you've been winning games with it, means it's not a horrible list. :P
Good luck with your game! Troy is good.
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the flesh tearers may not be welcome in the imperium, but we fight honorably in battle and will not sway from this bloody and challenging path ahead ;)
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Skaven when are you available and how many points you looking to field. I am testing armies for my GT's later this month so I have put together 1500 pt and 2k pt armies. But I can field whatever.
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Hm... 2500 is what i have been running but i can bog it down to 2000 or 1500 (or both if you want to test them both against overly assaulty stuff) ;)
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Testing both would be great. When are you available?
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thursday i get my models, so how about friday night or weekend before 330? (i might be able to do anytime on weekends)
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the flesh tearers may not be welcome in the imperium, but we fight honorably in battle and will not sway from this bloody and challenging path ahead ;)
Um....when i read the blood angels novels the flesh tearers were pretty welcomed.
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the flesh tearers may not be welcome in the imperium, but we fight honorably in battle and will not sway from this bloody and challenging path ahead ;)
Um....when i read the blood angels novels the flesh tearers were pretty welcomed.
now nobody likes us and the forces of the imperium only accept our aid as a last resort because we succumb to the red thirst so easily they fear well just eat them too. kind of profiling when you think about it, since we fight chaos who obviously taste terrible but hey you dont want our help well just force it on you ;)
nobody tells seth what to do when hes pissed off... even me... (stop! what are you doing?! dont charge the drop pod damn it, theres a dreadnought RIGHT THERE!) damn you and your vast death company's black rage!
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Saturday morning would be best for me. How does 10-11am sound?
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How do you keep a 400+ point Death Company busy?
nobody tells seth what to do when hes pissed off... even me... (stop! what are you doing?! dont charge the drop pod damn it, theres a dreadnought RIGHT THERE!) damn you and your vast death company's black rage!
A: Put a Drop Pod/Dreadnought right in front of it. :D
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@grimwulfe: that is perfect, and ill actually be bringing a surprise ;D
@ben: imagine what your record would look like if they didnt have rage though! besides, my new army is the exact opposite of my BA ALL SCORING UNITS (every model can score beyond 6). i left a pm with the specs if you want to check its lethality
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Just got it, Dave. Sent a reply back. And yes, Rage can be a double edged sword... I think the biggest drawback is that it makes them a little too predictable. Best thing to do with them, IMHO, is to make them as versatile as possible so that they can fight against almost anything.
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@grimwulfe: that is perfect, and ill actually be bringing a surprise
If its not beef jerky I am going to be dissapointed.
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i can bring that too ;D
im going to bring a new list i like to call "wolf-tide" that im going to play for one of our games. lets just say its perfect for fighting space wolves
@ben: didnt my new list scare you a little going from 20 scoring models to around 50? and none of them did i invest over 200 points in! (an accomplishment for me at least)
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Ragnar,
Im growing old here man wtf you called me out with this unbeatable list and I have heard nothing of an actual game taking place.
Dont let fear control you, man up and lets get this challenge rolling.
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Im growing old here man
You mean you weren't already? :)
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Ragnar,
Im growing old here man wtf you called me out with this unbeatable list and I have heard nothing of an actual game taking place.
Dont let fear control you, man up and lets get this challenge rolling.
I thought you guys had agreed on Saturday morning (based on what's posted here...)
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Thats for a game with Skavenknight. Ragnar has not reached out to schedule the game.
Rob,
Thats so wrong!
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This thread is to long for no reason man I hate to add to it.
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Thats for a game with Skavenknight. Ragnar has not reached out to schedule the game.
Rob,
Thats so wrong!
there I go getting the kids mixed up ;)
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C'mon Ragmar you talk this huge game and dont want to play it out to back up your words? I even challenge you with my Ultramarines. Your imperial Guard are no match for the might of the 4th company. Take my challenge or take Grimwulfe's. Put up or Shut up dude.
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my flesh tearers shall drink from the skulls of your guardsmen while we dine on your shattered entrails! (the flesh tearers also challenge, now if you beat all 3 of us you got some real proof)
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Wow Ragnar even the New guys, no offence Skaven, want to throw down to prove you wrong. So when is it gona happen and whos it gona be?
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Wow Ragnar even the New guys, no offence Skaven, want to throw down to prove you wrong. So when is it gona happen and whos it gona be?
offense? grand master steve d calls me a new guy instead of noob, what an honor! :D
im going to new heights on the bg ladder of fame ;D
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the blood ravens 3rd company are always looking to put guards men in there place and show how heretical they really are stand under the might of master of sanctity prathius and his angels of death dude thats 4 challenges one by a noob (me) who knows he can beat this list and if i can the Ultra marines of 4th company and ventris sure as hell can and troy def can wit no doubts can to if u aint goin to back up ur smack dont say it in the first place srry skaven never seen u play but i know i can then any one can
u just got served
curtisy of moonie
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This thread has been one of the best (and worst) things I've ever read on an online message board. It also shows why I stopped playing 40k (people like Ragnar) and why I love gaming at BG (people like Derek, Chase, Ian, and Steve D to name a few).
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The good outweigh the bad.
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The good outweigh the bad.
I dont know, i weigh alot ;)
moonie, its not that im not a noob, just a guard list has no chance of beating BA once they hit the frontline because i have dante so i can just swat away all of ragnars troops then hit and run back to an objective at last minute. not to mention a well placed vindicator shot really hurts too. of course, the bane of my exsistance is those damn models on mounts, bikes, camels, rhinos, mechanised rhinos, thunderwolves, palantirs, discs, etc... god damn toughness 5 moving around everywhere, makes me sick...
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I think Ragnar went to go hide under his Trolling bridge.
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Ragnar,
I am still waiting...
Grimwulfe
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Ragnar,
I am still waiting...
Grimwulfe
I hope you're not holding your breath cause that could be fatal.
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does susalka even come here any more, i think we scared him away :D
also, i thought he played orks and bragged they were unbeatable and undefeated at the doubles tourney
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This thred is dead and should be locked. Ragnar wont speak up and take on an opponent with said unbeatable list.
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This thred is dead and should be locked. Ragnar wont speak up and take on an opponent with said unbeatable list.
Agreed. I don't know why I ever gave that guy the benefit of the doubt.