Battleground Games Forum
Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: Ed on March 18, 2011, 06:37:31 AM
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I dont even care about the grey knights.
I so happy i can have a whole Henchmen army. LIKE REALLY HAPPY.
GO MONKEY GO!
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There is some real strength there in the all henchman list.
You can make a hard hitting hth unit but they they won't be able to survive the retailation.
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Well i was worried because my gk army only had one squad of gks i have like one 6 man termie squad.
So all my stormtroopers arn't going to collect dust anymore :D
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Figuring that each monkey supposedly will come in its own blister pack, we reasoned that a 36 monkey list (6 squads of 6) with Inquisitor Coteaz would come in at just under 2000 points... and somewhere around $400!
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The monkey list will fail.
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I think the 6 x 6 monkey list is the best thing to come out of that voltron sporting codex.
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The monkey list will fail.
You weren't there last night. There are those who argue the monkey list wins simply by existing, and believe me they're unshakable on that point.
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i play a game tonight had 5 monkeys they did shit. mvp was my evorsor which was in there just for fun. killed about 3x his point value and one charge he did he had 10 attacks and kill a squad of tyran warriors. all in all it was good fun.
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Grey knights are worse than space wolves. Why do I play this game anymore
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I think BA's are going to lose there edge in hth against the GK's
no more FNP against PAGK's
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I think BA's are going to lose there edge in hth against the GK's
no more FNP against PAGK's
No more close combat for any army that goes up against GK's. I love GW codex design right now, their design philosophy is: "If it aint broke, lets make something more broken than our current best codex and make it a monster vs EVERYTHING"
This codex is a joke
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AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH the sky is falling!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't count how many time's I've heard this over the years.
There's a couple of ways to counter the GK's you'll find a way. DE player's are going to be putting cruicible's of malediction on everyone, WH players will be using the power that neuter's psykers or psykout warheads, DA will just use there old school psychic hood, IG will pistol whip the SOB's, etc, etc .....
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Is the GK codex very powerful like the BA codex? What I mean is... Will I hear about how over the top ridiculous the GK codex is for a month and then never again?
Is it more in line with the SW codex which I still hear people complain about?
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Chase,
It is a great codex that no one knows how to fight so like the BA codex you will hear people whining.
I do believe it has ptential to be on par as the SW codex but also has its counters so we will have to see how that part pans out.
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MEQ's (marine equivilants) are going to have issue's, because the top 2 hth chapters have now been dethroned. Like troy said they'll find ways to cope, librarian's will cripple the psychic power aspect of the GK's. They also all carry storm bolter's so no duel CCW so on the charge your base PAGK (power armour GK) has 2 attacks 1 in protracted hth. This can be dealt with.
Most xeno's codex's are not going to have miuch issue's it will be buisness as normal.
That said I've been collecting GK's for years and never put them on the table. I'm looking forward to this codex, and yes I'm going to be 'That Guy' and play an all Purifier army.
I would say the second part of your statement is true chase you will hear people bitch about the GK's like the SW's. I've been playing for a long time this happen's almost all the time a new codex comes out. You'll hear the same thing in a couple months when the necrons or the tau get released.
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To be honest, I am not all that afraid of them with Daemons oddly enough, they are extremely good but not unbeatable by any means. They have lots of nasty tricks against but I THINK I can manage.I think the only thing that will have a very very difficult time is obviously certain builds of Daemons and marines but as usual it all depends on the list and the player. The book is just a tool but you still have to know how to use it.
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When someone designs a basic trooper with a power weapon and power armor for a mere 20 points, you know someone was smoking crack when writing this.
Close Combat armies whether they are MEQ or not will fall to even the most basic of GK units with no recourse. With units able to upgrade to Nemesis Halberds for paltry costs, you are looking at WS4/I6/S5(hammerhand able to be cast by every justicar) you are averaging out a 5 man unit killing 3 marines in basic combat before the marines strike, and then are afforded their armor saves vs the marines they did not kill. This is not the GK charging but being charged, and not counting if their grand master gives them counter attack.
If not every close combat weapon wielded by the GK were power weapons, then this would be a fantastic codex. However because everyone has power weapons, very niche armies (deathwing, cruicible DE, etc) will do well while the rest of the players will wonder what GW was thinking.
This codex is pure cheese that eclipses SW codex
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Not many people have played a bunch of games with these guys never-mind make an all comers and bring them to a tournament...Only time till tell.
I remember seeing thousands of posts like this when the nids came out.
We will see.
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When someone designs a basic trooper with a power weapon and power armor for a mere 20 points, you know someone was smoking crack when writing this.
Close Combat armies whether they are MEQ or not will fall to even the most basic of GK units with no recourse. With units able to upgrade to Nemesis Halberds for paltry costs, you are looking at WS4/I6/S5(hammerhand able to be cast by every justicar) you are averaging out a 5 man unit killing 3 marines in basic combat before the marines strike, and then are afforded their armor saves vs the marines they did not kill. This is not the GK charging but being charged, and not counting if their grand master gives them counter attack.
If not every close combat weapon wielded by the GK were power weapons, then this would be a fantastic codex. However because everyone has power weapons, very niche armies (deathwing, cruicible DE, etc) will do well while the rest of the players will wonder what GW was thinking.
This codex is pure cheese that eclipses SW codex
Spoken like one who is scared. They are not the end all be all of codexes. A normal MEQ army will be able to fair well against them, the player will just need to play well. As for HTH armies they also can do well but need to be much smarter on what they attack and get into.
Overall the dex hassome good things but also some glaringly bad things. So its a matter of if the general can overcome the them and take the day.
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When someone designs a basic trooper with a power weapon and power armor for a mere 20 points, you know someone was smoking crack when writing this.
Close Combat armies whether they are MEQ or not will fall to even the most basic of GK units with no recourse. With units able to upgrade to Nemesis Halberds for paltry costs, you are looking at WS4/I6/S5(hammerhand able to be cast by every justicar) you are averaging out a 5 man unit killing 3 marines in basic combat before the marines strike, and then are afforded their armor saves vs the marines they did not kill. This is not the GK charging but being charged, and not counting if their grand master gives them counter attack.
If not every close combat weapon wielded by the GK were power weapons, then this would be a fantastic codex. However because everyone has power weapons, very niche armies (deathwing, cruicible DE, etc) will do well while the rest of the players will wonder what GW was thinking.
This codex is pure cheese that eclipses SW codex
Spoken like one who is scared. They are not the end all be all of codexes. A normal MEQ army will be able to fair well against them, the player will just need to play well. As for HTH armies they also can do well but need to be much smarter on what they attack and get into.
Overall the dex hassome good things but also some glaringly bad things. So its a matter of if the general can overcome the them and take the day.
^ Agreed
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Ah Bill you see this is just great. I feel like Yoda whenever you confirm anything I say. Just because you were the only kid our group ever let play with us and you have grown into a fine and smart general.
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I remember a couple of months back when people were saying
"Sanguninary Priest give FNP and furious charge to all units within 6' WTF this is a game changer and the BA's are broken"
to go into the way back machine:
"Swooping hawks get to drop a str 4 template on there opponent's before they land, broken"
Further back:
"Telescopic legs on a ork with a shock attack gun, what can stop that! WTF!"
and so the cycle continue's.....................
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I remember a couple of months back when people were saying
"Sanguninary Priest give FNP and furious charge to all units within 6' WTF this is a game changer and the BA's are broken"
to go into the way back machine:
"Swooping hawks get to drop a str 4 template on there opponent's before they land, broken"
Further back:
"Telescopic legs on a ork with a shock attack gun, what can stop that! WTF!"
and so the cycle continue's.....................
I'm wondering how much of this GK talk is more of that and how much is actually justified. To me, it seems that only the Space Wolves have lived up to their hype.
Interestingly enough, DE got almost no love when the book came out and have done well in our events (so far).
In other news, I opened the cover of the codex today. The art on the inside is pretty cool, but that's about as far as I got.
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DE codex was a wonky codex that alot of people didnt understand and didnt evaluate properly. Thats why alot of the hype wasnt there. Also its a niche army.
Youll see it alot more for a Space Marine codex because Space marines are a very popular army choice and alot more people are inclined to use them.
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There is something to be said about GW being unable to balance codecies properly. They have been on this weird trend as of late.
I've been playing this game since 2005 and have noticed the trend. They do the power creep for a while, plateau and then start the creep again. Xenos races tend to be part of the power plateau while the power armor armies tend to be part of the upward advance.
All the inarticulate 'sperging is because of the trend GW tends to follow. Am I afraid of the GK codex? Hardly. Will it help choose who I play casually? Probably. Then again, this ability to think rationally has allowed me to not hate 40k. Beer and pretzels all the way guys, it's little plastic men.
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This codex is why my marines are covered in hearts.
lol 40k.
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Spoken like one who is scared. They are not the end all be all of codexes. A normal MEQ army will be able to fair well against them, the player will just need to play well. As for HTH armies they also can do well but need to be much smarter on what they attack and get into.
Overall the dex hassome good things but also some glaringly bad things. So its a matter of if the general can overcome the them and take the day.
Spoken like someone who has truely taken a huge chug of the GW Codex Koolaide.
If you seriously think a normal MEQ army will do well against the GK, you are in need of some serious help. The entire army has Power Weapons, which changes the ENTIRE CLOSE COMBAT DYNAMIC. People complained about the Sanguinary Priest giving anyone in 6 inches FNP and FC, and then realized they were a single wound T4 model with no invulnerable save and could be picked out in close combat.
Now I know you are going to bring out the "Well they only have maximum of 24 inches on their weapons". Mounted your Psycannons have a 30 inch range and 2 shots a peice. If your rhino does not move you have 4 shots with a Str 7 ap4 RENDING weapon. This would be a minor issue if you had no way to get a unit near my deployment zone before the 2nd turn, however you will be seeing that "shunt" move teleporting a unit of somekind(Dreadknight, GKSS) within enough range to assault the next round.
I dont think teleporting is OP btw, esp since you cannot do it as a scout move(which some internet superstars still think is possible) and I think it adds a new element to the game which is fantastic.
All in All, the codex would be 100% perfect if the basic trooper was not given a freaking power weapon. This is what I feel is the most ridiculous portion of the codex. Everything else can be planned for, but when the shift in Close Combat is this huge, something is amiss.
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Thats 3 close combat armies in a row if you count DE, now a mostly 2+ army for my lack of ap2 not cc Necrons to
kill be slaughtered by.
I took my look in the codex and I almost died from seeing the powerweapons, but Its not that bad assuming they dont get to you.
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I think GW realized how much the meta tilted toward Shooting and may be overcompensating a bit with powerful Assault.
It's silly to me as a Daemons player that Grey Knights have close combat weapons that still allow my base invulnerable save.
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Rick your woe is me attitude is priceless. Keep up the good work I love the whine...
As for Shunt please take a look at this good article that explains why it is legal.
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/03/goatboy-grey-knights-and-shunt-punch.html (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/03/goatboy-grey-knights-and-shunt-punch.html)
Overall yes it makes hth much harder but it definitly isnt the end all be all of woe. With a balanced army and some good old know how any army can do well against it. Pick your fights keep your range and assault only when neccessary.
A big balencing factor is the lack of attacks the GK get. They dont get the extra attack so they are swinging alot less.
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Rick your woe is me attitude is priceless. Keep up the good work I love the whine...
As for Shunt please take a look at this good article that explains why it is legal.
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/03/goatboy-grey-knights-and-shunt-punch.html (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/03/goatboy-grey-knights-and-shunt-punch.html)
Overall yes it makes hth much harder but it definitly isnt the end all be all of woe. With a balanced army and some good old know how any army can do well against it. Pick your fights keep your range and assault only when neccessary.
A big balencing factor is the lack of attacks the GK get. They dont get the extra attack so they are swinging alot less.
Goatboy article is not "proof it works". If the game has yet to start, you cannot use a once a game movement can you?
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Didnt say it was proof. Just pointing it out that it brings up some very good points as to why it can work.
FYI - as soon as I roll dice to see who goes first or what not the game has started so that argument is not valid.
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Didnt say it was proof. Just pointing it out that it brings up some very good points as to why it can work.
FYI - as soon as I roll dice to see who goes first or what not the game has started so that argument is not valid.
O Troy, the scout move happens before the game starts, the first turn of round one.
It is very interesting but if GW intends this to be the case, then I guess 40k has their next version of speed freaks!
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Yellow card: "good article" from BoLS
Red Card: Totally wrong supposition in article's first paragraph re: Scout move
So, I stopped reading that pretty quick. It's hard enough for me to learn what's right, nevermind what's right from wrong.
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Devils advocate is a great thing...
The argument is there and can be argued either way. Personally I dont like it and think that it could be broken. It will definitly need to be FAQ'ed or people will argue it till blue in the face.
The best thing we can do is make sure Chase and crew are well informed with all the facts and both sides of the argument so they can make an educated decision for tourny play.
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Goatboy cited the relevant rules. I see little room for argument. Until GW FAQ's it on power level, it works fine.
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The BBB says scout moves occur before the first players first turn. The entry in the GK Codex says that they may do this move during one movement phase during the game. How can hey use his move if he game has yet to start? The language and wording for this argument is pretty clear....
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Been keeping up with this thread the whole time so I'm going to throw my 2 cents in.
The scout movement issue is kind of confusing in the sense of its fuzziness, I mean doesn't the BBB have higher authority in relation to ruling than the GK codex would? Kind of like Federal laws trumping state laws if that comparison makes sense.
I find it pretty over the top that all the basic troops for the GK are so cheap AND come with power weapons. What does an H2H army have to do now, bring terminators in to fight a unit of basic troops? That's ridiculous. I mean with the newer cheese out there that are purely H2H such as the spacewolves I feel like the new GK codex is trying to combat that a little, but at the same time they really overdid it. It really is going to test the stratagem of wolf players (and all H2H combat armies such as BA) here because instead of being able to go headlong into H2H more broken armies full of long fangs and such will be brought in to take care of the cheese-tastic troops. On top of that you have this unit of troops ready to assault you into oblivion and they have this complete cheese shunt? Seriously? I thought spacewolves were bad with the Twolves having fleet and being able to basically assault turn 1, but this shunt trumps that to the point where I want to know what drugs GW was on when they thought that would be a good idea in coordination with the ability to give scout. All in all, I think that although this is a completely new level of cheese being brought to the table, it somewhat makes sense in relation to the newer H2H oriented armies needing something to stop them (they went about doing this all wrong though). I believe a well built MEQ list could bring them down, but it'd take skill, luck, ability and the right build.
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[where I want to know what drugs GW was on when they thought that would be a good idea
i think that drug is called "boosted sales > game balance" or something like that
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everyone cries when a new codex comes out only time i cried is when bugs got nerfed.
my largest army is daemons and i think i could take them. Lets the hunters be hunted.
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The BBB says scout moves occur before the first players first turn. The entry in the GK Codex says that they may do this move during one movement phase during the game. How can hey use his move if he game has yet to start? The language and wording for this argument is pretty clear....
You can blow smoke on your scout move. Thats once per game, too. CHECK MATE.
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You can blow smoke on your scout move. Thats once per game, too. CHECK MATE.
Scout rule is pretty clear in that a normal move must be used. Shunt as a one-per-game ability is not something I would consider a "normal" move. A unique move, a one-time move, yes. But not normal.
Smoke
"Once per game, after completing its move, a vehicle with smoke launcher can trigger them..."
Smoke isn't a one-time move. It's a one-time ability that can be done as a consequence, that is *after*, a move action.
"CHECK MATE" ::)
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Is turbo boosting normal movement?
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In that same light here is the rule for the Teleporter.
Personal Teleporter - Units with personal teleporters are Jump Infantry. Once per game, the unit can elect to make a teleport shunt instead of moving. If making a teleport shunt the unit immediately makes a move of up to 30" in any direction.
Key words here are in bold.
This ability takes the place of normal movement so therefore can be used just like Smoke and Turbo Boosting. The most relevant rule here is the Turbo Boosting which is a Speacial move which in turn counts as normal movement so therefore can be done in the scout move.
And lastley, Rick it is not clear cut or we wouldnt be having this discussion so please lets try and have an educated discussion siting actual text to back up our points.
The entry in the GK Codex says that they may do this move during one movement phase during the game.
The Scout move is a movement phase in the game btw it is a pre-movement advance.
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With Shunting I'm with it's legal til GW says otherwise. The reason's behind it are pretty solid. Plus personally I think its a huge risk. It's similiar to the SW scouts there's a good chance they're going to kill something and then die a spectacular death.
Personally I don't think a 150 pts for a shunting unit is worth it. Don't forget you also have to take a GM who at a minimum is a 175pts to pull this off. But to make him effective he needs a transport the cheapest way to do that is a chimera which then have to take a 2nd HQ, Storm Raven, or Land Raider. The Raven starts at 205. So to take a GM and shunt you need to spend 380 pts on the HQ to make him effective and then a min of 150 on the shunting squad for a grand total of 530. That's for 8 model's before you've even touched the troops. For me that's not very cost effective.
Personally I see the major set backs of the GK's as lack of hth attacks, They have great HQ"s but all of them with the exception of crowe and the inq are in terminator armour. They don't have a lot of anti-tank capabilities. Even with rending psycannos's you still need to roll a 6 which you have a 17% (rounding up) of getting. They are also very pricey to bring. I was able to max out at 51 marines and 6 tanks at 1850 and that's with nothing other than troops and transports.
So basically roll with the punch's
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Is turbo boosting normal movement?
I would say yes, as it can be done every turn.
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This ability takes the place of normal movement so therefore can be used just like Smoke and Turbo Boosting. The most relevant rule here is the Turbo Boosting which is a Speacial move which in turn counts as normal movement so therefore can be done in the scout move.
Can we be clear that smoke is not part of the move, but a separate after-effect? It's triggered by a move; it is not the move itself.
And Turbo Boosting, see above post. It's special, but it's not unique, not a once-per-game movement.
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I was hoping for a citation rather than a guess. I don't have my rulebook on me.
Ben, you seem like a nice guy, but this reminds me of the old Vulcan shenanigans that caused an uproar and led to a lot of flaming. In the end, I really don't care to continue talking about this. There's been a little too much cherry picking and te like for me to feel like any progress can be made.
Play how you want to play and have fun.
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I was hoping for a citation rather than a guess. I don't have my rulebook on me.
Turbo Boosting is specifically allowed by the rule book FAQ. But you're probably looking for a citation that adjucates Turbo Boosting is normal movement. I'll keep looking. Maybe INAT will have an answer (or have one soon).
After all, it's important that the rules are clear. The rules are there so that we can enjoy the same game, regardless of whether we know each other.
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I like and support the shunt punch idea working. If you do not go first or sieze the initiative, Youve lost a 320 point squad. Another rule breaKer is the purgation squad? It has the power that allows you to shoot without LOS, so could it be an argument you could fire the four incinerators from within a razorback?
All things considered, you have some fun stuff, and force weapons. Theres where the fun ends. With shooty lists and mech being the meta as of now, they're going to be hurting in a few matchups, thriving in others.
In a word, there has been no power creep since the space wolf codex. Blood Angels got some goodies, but nothing too broken, only different; Dark Eldar are very killy, but theyre still the same glass nukes with finesse; and grey knights are super leet in combat, but lack any ranged weapons to write home about. It all seems appropriately balanced, as Rich said, this, In my honest opinion, is a plateau period, which is a nice way of easing into a new edition somewhere in the next couple years, once all codexes are on a closely level playing field.
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Another rule breaKer is the purgation squad? It has the power that allows you to shoot without LOS, so could it be an argument you could fire the four incinerators from within a razorback?
They are not "on the table" and require a fire point like everyone else.
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Nothing in INAT one way or another regarding Turbo Boosters, Scouts, Shunts or anything else relevant. For now, it remains a point of contention in which both sides have valid points, which is... meh.
For those who don't know me personally, I enjoy playing 40k and I consider playing as laid-back practice for the tournament scene. Though I'm not a great competitor results-wise, I can still help my friends become better players. (Most of them are my equals or better, admittedly.) That's all I would want for everyone here as well. (I've also been sick for the past couple weeks, so I've nothing better to do than scour the forums. :) )
So when it comes to a rules dispute, it's not good enough for me to take someone's word or opinion. I have to know exactly why it is so. The last tournament I was in, I found out only too late that some other players were misinterpreting some fairly important rules specific to their armies. I don't believe it was done with any malice or intention of cheating, but it does slant the playing field in their favor. I may have finished better than I did, and I'm sure everyone here has a similar story or two.
As cool as the GK codex seems, I dread the misinterpretations for the above reasons.
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So has an agreement has been reached with respect to Shunt and Scout Move?
I have been asked this question a time or two now and it will come up in the Doubles on April 9th.
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With Shunting I'm with it's legal til GW says otherwise. The reason's behind it are pretty solid. Plus personally I think its a huge risk. It's similiar to the SW scouts there's a good chance they're going to kill something and then die a spectacular death.
<<<<Some other stuff cut out >>>>
So basically roll with the punch's
Agreed, that's about the size of it. It looks and feels legal. It's great shock\awe first turn approach.. but then ...
Ahh we'll see.
Cheers,
Alan
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I know I put up arguments against it, but I don't care for this tournament. If people want it, okay.
Hai, I'm Daemonz. So the Scout Shunt is just cute.