Battleground Games Forum
Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: Chase on March 22, 2011, 12:16:39 AM
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So despite my better judgment, I'm opening this up for discussion in hopes that it will produce some cool ideas I have not considered.
I am looking ONLY for table specific restrictions based on points and types of models. This is NOT a thread about table specific special rules or rules interactions.
Example: Last year, in the sewer system, we said that there can be no super heavy walkers, gargantuan creatures, fliers, or drop pods.
We decided (last second) to restrict the planet surface table to a 2500 points per model limit which forced the two emperor titans to fight on the moon together.
Let's keep this thread on topic.
For those of you not in the know, the tables for this years Megabattle will be as follows:
5v5 - Moon
5v5 - Ice Cap
5v5 - (Desert) Wasteland
5v5 - Sewer System / Cavern
10v10 - Planet Surface
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Moon- Unlimited
Ice Cap- 2500 point cap, unrestricted superheavies- a limit toward tanks, skimmers, fliers and non walkers would be cool to simulate ice terrain
Wasteland- Unlimited
Sewer- no super heavy walkers, gargantuan creatures, fliers, or drop pods.
10v10- 2500 point cap unrestricted superheavies /fliers
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I don't know if this is the right kind of post but, I'm basing my models on snow and i would like to play on the snow table. I don't know how you go about placing players on tables and such.
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when the final decisions are made about what is allowed on what table then it will be left to the teams to respectively decide the best/most effective player placement. When the individual forums are up you will get a chance to talk to everyone that is signed up for your team and get a feel for who is bringing what and based on army composition and experience the best place for you too go.
I think this is the one aspect of the mega battle that we really haven't run into in the complaints department. Usually teams are good at self regulating and teaming players up in a manner where they can enjoy the game the most. Of course, there is always going to be one or two examples where this was not that case. But out of 40 people you can not always have everyone getting exactly what they want.
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for basic restrictions I agree with trooper though I would even consider having the 10x10 table go as low as 1000/1500 points for largest single model. if the city itself is important in some way and with the sewers under it very large heavy vehicles might have to be left at home. More about brutal street to street fighting and regular transports and tanks.
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when the final decisions are made about what is allowed on what table then it will be left to the teams to respectively decide the best/most effective player placement. When the individual forums are up you will get a chance to talk to everyone that is signed up for your team and get a feel for who is bringing what and based on army composition and experience the best place for you too go.
I think this is the one aspect of the mega battle that we really haven't run into in the complaints department. Usually teams are good at self regulating and teaming players up in a manner where they can enjoy the game the most. Of course, there is always going to be one or two examples where this was not that case. But out of 40 people you can not always have everyone getting exactly what they want.
Well, I have heard many complaints. Moose claims to have predicted an escalation in superheavies immediately after the first megabattle ended. I understand he's be warning about said escalation all along. I'm another. There were also several chaos players at last year's big table who thought Sim's titans and their d-templates took out vehicles and produced a distinct advantage for Order. This discussion has taken place every year.
I reviewed the Order army lists last year after the fight. I haven't had access to the Disorder lists. To the best of my ability to reconstruct, we had four players who spent every single point on big models. No one else spent many more points than it would take to buy two baneblades. The vast majority of players, doing as they did last year, could fit under 1500 points of superheavies and gargantuan.
It's luck of the draw whether one ends up facing an all superheavy player, but twice in a row I've found myself opposite big walkers. I have no problems with players who enjoy big models putting down a lot of big models, but I don't understand why they think they should have the right to run over players who would prefer another style of game. Not everyone has the modeling skill, time, money or inclination to adopt to the big model style of play on a once a year basis.
My preference would be for a no holds barred table, with other tables having different points limits on how many points might be spent on gargantuans or superheavies. Perhaps the big table might be at 1500, with other tables at similar or smaller levels. Perhaps the cavern should again not allow walkers, gargantuans or flyers.
I might also suggest that we do not decide points in superheavies until lots of people have signed up. Along with t-shirt sizes, ask everyone signing up how many points of superheavies they intend to field, and how many points they would be comfortable playing against. If twenty players say they intend to field 4000 points of big models, let's have two no holds barred tables. If, as last year, the vast majority of players are going to be fielding a baneblade or two, let the majority of tables be set up for a baneblade or two.
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Personally I really don't like the idea of punishing super heavy players and make them play only on a no holds bar table. Fluff wise it makes no sends titans cannot be on the main table as I've read 4 different books that had titans one was an emperor walking through the city! Another had titans ducking to fit into a giant under ground chasm. My point is don't say its not fluffy to have a massive robot talking through a city because it is. If your across one of these things you have team mates to help you. Don't whine and say I don't think super heavies are fair. This is an appocolyps style Mega battle there are not supposed to be many restrictions. Every thing rich suggested seems perfect to me.
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Personally I really don't like the idea of punishing super heavy players and make them play only on a no holds bar table. Fluff wise it makes no sends titans cannot be on the main table as I've read 4 different books that had titans one was an emperor walking through the city! Another had titans ducking to fit into a giant under ground chasm. My point is don't say its not fluffy to have a massive robot talking through a city because it is. If your across one of these things you have team mates to help you. Don't whine and say I don't think super heavies are fair. This is an appocolyps style Mega battle there are not supposed to be many restrictions. Every thing rich suggested seems perfect to me.
I would say it's not punishing super heavies, but punishing Stupid Heavies (Trademarked by me). Example: Emperor titans. By warhounds and reavers can go on the surface, they are not over 2500 points. And it doesn't create an imbalance for those who aren't looking for the kind of experience that Emperors bring.
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I personally think the Banelord would be hilarious on the main table.
Only strength D is my size 100 boot! (claw)
EDIT for content:
The Banelord is a good example of a model that isn't necessarily undercosted for it's firepower and even allows for normal models to take saves from many of it's guns because it lacks Strength (Steve) D on any of it's ranged weapons. While it's 2500, it is less powerful than a Reaver with all D weapons considering the strength of titans with D weapons.
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can i be put on the non super heavy table
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There should be only 1 table where there is a restriction on point limits for super heavies. That is the table that has no super heavies on it.
This is apocolypse, not 4000 point regular 40k
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There should be only 1 table where there is a restriction on point limits for super heavies. That is the table that has no super heavies on it.
This is apocolypse, not 4000 point regular 40k
^ Like.
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For real though, I say have one table where X gamers can play on with NO heavies. This way the nubs without heavies can still feel loved. And I do mean NO HEAVIES, nor fliers, titans, anything outside of a gw codex for a normal game. And then the moon being the iron man hardcore all or nothing superheavy-only table.
I would like to see the frigid temperature on the ice table, and the kicking sandstorms etc on the dessert table have an in-game effect.
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There should be only 1 table where there is a restriction on point limits for super heavies. That is the table that has no super heavies on it.
I personally agree with this too. However, in light of what Bob said, I can understand the frustration of what others go through when they're left with no choice (or forced) to play against players who bring the big point models to the Megabattle. But realistically speaking, unless half of the Megabattle attendants decide that they want to build their own Emperor Titan, I don't think it'd really be a problem. Other than the Emperor Titan, are there any other Super Heavies/Gargantuan Creatures that are more than 2500? To my knowledge, there isn't any, and the Banelord and Warlord Titan are the only ones I've seen at 2500 exactly.
So I guess what it comes down to is, is it likely that there could be a few more, if not possibly several more Emperor Titans this year? If not, then I don't think the point restrictions are necessary.
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Current plan:
Moon - Unlimited - If you're there, expect total annihilation.
Ice Cap - 2500 point cap. (This may swap with the Wasteland table, depending on the design of each)
Wasteland - Codex models only. NO super heavies. (This may swap with the Ice Cap table, depending on the design of each)
Sewer - No super heavy walkers, gargantuan creatures, fliers, or drop pods.
Planet Surface - 2500 point cap.
Obviously this is subject to change.
Also, expect the event post to go up soon. Registration will open once it has been posted.
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For real though, I say have one table where X gamers can play on with NO heavies. This way the nubs without heavies can still feel loved. And I do mean NO HEAVIES, nor fliers, titans, anything outside of a gw codex for a normal game. And then the moon being the iron man hardcore all or nothing superheavy-only table.
I would like to see the frigid temperature on the ice table, and the kicking sandstorms etc on the dessert table have an in-game effect.
I hate to say it, I agree with GossCannon. :o
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The plain and simple best idea is to have the sewers be a beer and pretzels, no Apocalypse (or apoc if you like that term...) units/superheavies/gargantuans; the moon the superheavies only iron-man table; the planet table to be anything goes, and the side tables either anything goes, or 2500 points limit.
There are tons of unofficial models that go over 2500, the liklihood of them arising is unimportant, the store should be prepared for anything and everything so to avoid a problem before it comes up.
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There should be only 1 table where there is a restriction on point limits for super heavies. That is the table that has no super heavies on it.
I personally agree with this too. However, in light of what Bob said, I can understand the frustration of what others go through when they're left with no choice (or forced) to play against players who bring the big point models to the Megabattle. But realistically speaking, unless half of the Megabattle attendants decide that they want to build their own Emperor Titan, I don't think it'd really be a problem. Other than the Emperor Titan, are there any other Super Heavies/Gargantuan Creatures that are more than 2500? To my knowledge, there isn't any, and the Banelord and Warlord Titan are the only ones I've seen at 2500 exactly.
So I guess what it comes down to is, is it likely that there could be a few more, if not possibly several more Emperor Titans this year? If not, then I don't think the point restrictions are necessary.
I don't think it is the cost of the single model that is important, but the points total of superheavies. It doesn't matter much if one is facing an Emperor or a bunch of warhounds, if the opposition has 4000 points of stuff throwing D templates from behind void shields and heavy armor, you have a problem unless your army is specifically designed to counter it. I had the void shields of the Black Titan all the way down to zero last year on turn 2, but by turn 2 we didn't have anything left that could take advantage of the shields being down. The Titan had enough D templates to have wiped out any threat strong enough to hurt it. By turn 4, its shields were all up again. If I were up against a wall of smaller titans, the result would have been much the same.
But it is definitely worth asking how many players want to bring how much. The no holds barred people can continue to say how much fun it would be to crush people without big models, and how they should have the right to do so. I can suggest that it would better to let people seek out a table that they would enjoy. The big model people are not going to shift, they will insist on their right to crush folks who can't match up to their model collections.
I'd really like people to tell Derek and Chase what power level they are comfortable with, and would encourage Derek and Chase to keep in mind how many people asked for what when they make up table rules. Listen to the players, and give them a chance to play the game in a way they enjoy playing. That should be the objective. Everyone should be having fun.
I half anticipate there might be one more player who joins the all big model club. I half anticipate that the rest of the players, instead of fielding 1500 points or less of big models, fields 1750 points or less of big models. Aside from a few players who take it all the way to the extreme, there will be quite a few people who will bring a bit more than they brought last year. If the escalation is not stopped it will continue.
Talking to Chase after last year's battle, I don't think he is comfortable with continued escalation. If so, I think he should stand firm. One or two baneblades per army was about right. But this would be his call.
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The no holds barred people can continue to say how much fun it would be to crush people without big models, and how they should have the right to do so. I can suggest that it would better to let people seek out a table that they would enjoy. The big model people are not going to shift, they will insist on their right to crush folks who can't match up to their model collections.
My god you are a cry baby. If you honestly feel like anyone with a decent super heavy is there just to roll some dice and watch an opponent look miserable, I have to wonder why you even leave your house for this game.
I was one of the leaders of the Disorder team until the whining got to much for me to bear. Knowing there was a number of enemy titans on the field, we obviously had to come up with ways to counter them. Do you know what we found to be the best in testing? 3 Chaos Terminators with combi-meltas. 105 points. Until I left the team, two squads of them were expected to handle the big stuff. We had some Vendettas, too. At no point did any of us feel overwhelmed. We thought about what the problems could be and devised solutions. Unfortunately for you, they don't involve sitting in your deployment zone shooting bright lances. Shooting void shields is stupid. Get in there and ignore them. Turbo boost a Wave Serpent filled with Fire Dragons. Get creative. Not every problem can be solved with long range shooting.
Outside of its exceptional firepower, I was worried about our team taking an Emperor. Why? Because I think it's too easy to kill.
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I am kinda against a table with no super heavies at all, if you want it to be lower key cap it at 500 points a model. if there is a no super heavies table would such a table still allow data sheet formations and non super heavy models such as most flyers or the more unusual rhino and land raider configurations?
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I am kinda against a table with no super heavies at all, if you want it to be lower key cap it at 500 points a model. if there is a no super heavies table would such a table still allow data sheet formations and non super heavy models such as most flyers or the more unusual rhino and land raider configurations?
Yes. :)
The only thing that wouldn't be allowed is super heavy or gargantuan creature.
I'm not sure what defines either of them (structure points?), but... yeah.
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Wow first post in a LONG time! I totally agree with ian (in alot nicer of a way lol). Honestly when i heard that nick was bringing an emperor titan, literally my first thought was "wow i feel bad for nick cuz that things never gonna get to play" i had a specific strategy for this one model and it was NOT shoot it from afar. I've seen many games where a titan will win the match because of lack of strategy and i've seen a single squad of stormtroopers deep strike with meltaguns and pop the titan right then and there! Getting in the void shields is crucial. Once this is achieved, the titan is basically useless. Its just all about thinking on your toes and when one strategy dosnt work, have a backup!
As for table composition, i honestly don't feel like limits should be made (some for reasons steve said) but we had a playtest for the 2nd megabattle where we (chaos) took alot of big stuff and order didn't. We ended up losing due to strategic purposes, not because of matching firepower. Utilizing datasheets is a good way to counter a bunch of superheavies! But idk that's just me...
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Yep, sounds to me like a job for ten five-man squads of stormtroopers with meltaguns.
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And before someone comments on my point limit statement, i forgot to mention that i am fully aware that that's not happening and i just said it to express my oppinion cuz i feel if you restrict alot of things, it kinda defeats the purpose of the game... idk but id feel waaaaaayyy more accomplished when something small takes out something big lol
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The no holds barred people can continue to say how much fun it would be to crush people without big models, and how they should have the right to do so. I can suggest that it would better to let people seek out a table that they would enjoy. The big model people are not going to shift, they will insist on their right to crush folks who can't match up to their model collections.
My god you are a cry baby. If you honestly feel like anyone with a decent super heavy is there just to roll some dice and watch an opponent look miserable, I have to wonder why you even leave your house for this game.
I was one of the leaders of the Disorder team until the whining got to much for me to bear. Knowing there was a number of enemy titans on the field, we obviously had to come up with ways to counter them. Do you know what we found to be the best in testing? 3 Chaos Terminators with combi-meltas. 105 points. Until I left the team, two squads of them were expected to handle the big stuff. We had some Vendettas, too. At no point did any of us feel overwhelmed. We thought about what the problems could be and devised solutions. Unfortunately for you, they don't involve sitting in your deployment zone shooting bright lances. Shooting void shields is stupid. Get in there and ignore them. Turbo boost a Wave Serpent filled with Fire Dragons. Get creative. Not every problem can be solved with long range shooting.
Outside of its exceptional firepower, I was worried about our team taking an Emperor. Why? Because I think it's too easy to kill.
Had a falcon full of dragons. Had a seer council with witchblades. Had strategic redeployment to push models forward. Had fighters with bright lances flying inside the shields. Had four plus rail guns mounted on skimmers. Had lots of war walkers to take down void shields.
Last year's interpretation of the Titan shooting rules had head mounted D-Template weapons firing at the titan's toes, so none of the above did much good. Part of my problem was planning for assault walkers and getting a stand and shoot walker. Yes, I could have specialized more in titan killing, but doing so would have made my force less capable of fighting a more ordinary force. The odds that the Black Emperor would have shifted to my table and my front did not seem so high that I planned for it.
If we play book shooting rules this year, if the maximum depression of guns is 45 degrees, codex forces against big titans will be a fun interesting fight. If you think you will enjoy it, and I suspect you would, volunteer for the no hold barred table and bring a pure codex army. If you think a few terminators can take on a big titan, show me. I'm not trying to deny anyone the chance to play the game as they want to play it. There were guys on the Order table with titan hammer squads talking the same way as you. It's just too bad that they didn't know where the titans would be, that they wound up on the wrong table for the best shot at glory.
I haven't the least objection to players coming in with 4000 points of big models. They just shouldn't be ducking real opposition. They should just be willing to go up against opponents who relish the challenge and have the right plans and the right stuff.
I've just done it twice in a row, and would like a more typical experience this time around.
Assuming there is any such thing as a typical experience at a mega battle.
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If you think a few terminators can take on a big titan, show me.
I don't have to show you. You can use statistics.
They just shouldn't be ducking real opposition. They should just be willing to go up against opponents who relish the challenge and have the right plans and the right stuff.
I don't know how much more blatant we could have been about what was going to happen on the moon. I'm sorry you didn't listen.
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I just want to know Bob, where in the grand scheme of things you think you belong at this mega battle? Do you want to play your super shooty army with fliers and a super heavy, but want no one to shoot back at you or assault you? I am confused as to what you want out of this.
*SPERG*
AND FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST STOP TALKING ABOUT THE BLACK TITAN!!!!!!!!!!! NICK HAD HIS EMPEROR TITAN POSSESSED AND DIDNT EVEN GET TO SHOT WITH HIS BUT YOU DONT SEE HIM BITCHING AND MOANING ABOUT IT AND HOW IT RUINED HIS EXPERIENCE. HE IS AN ADULT AND LIVED WITH WHAT HAPPENED!
*/SPERG*
If you seriously want to play on a table Bob, drop your saucer and flyers and play on the no super heavies table. That way you can play your 4000 point army without having to worry about all the big bad people conspiring against you.
Chase, One table with no super heavies, everything else has whatever can be fielded. We are already playing the apocolypse format toned down and it is a shame that we have to even consider limiting point costs because people choose not to do what is needed to be done to counter the thoughts of us Egotistical Elitest Powergamers.
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Limiting 2 of 5 tables to 2500 point models is basically no restriction at all. I am more or less positive, after being shown what an Emperor can do before last year's Megabattle, that it will ruin the "experience" for the average player on a 5v5 table unless there are specific tools deployed against it by savvy players with a plan.
The 2500 point limit per model is just a way for us to control where the Emperors go.
I think that Bob's analysis of the Order lists from last year is valuable. Almost everyone had two Baneblade equivalents or less (roughly 1000 points or less) worth of super heavies. I am very comfortable with this number.
Last year 10% of the players (4 of 40) took nothing but super heavies, 5% (2 of 40) took a 4000 point model. This year, the two 4000 point models would have to play on the Moon. I would hope the other two players taking nothing but super heavies play there also, or spread out.
It is important for us to allow for the Apocalypse feel. It is important for us to let player see and fight against models they've never seen before and will not see outside of our Megabattle. It is also important for us to offer up the chance to play something close to the type of game someone is looking for.
The cavern will probably not have more than 1.5 super heavies per player due to restrictions. I could most definitely be wrong, however.
We will have a "no super heavies or gargantuan creature" table unless I feel that many people do not want that. I expect (hope) we have a bunch of new faces this year. Please keep in mind that not many players out there own a super heavy. I also think there is some appeal to TONS of codex stuff slugging it out. I just hope that enough stuff dies. This table and the restrictions are a work in progress.
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Hrm. You know, having just "codex" orks on the table that hasn't got superheavies might be a riot (as an aside).
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You know what would be a fun awesome idea? Playing warhammer 40,000 instead of complaining about it, it is a game with little toy soldiers and giant robots that you roll dice for.
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Dave you said it! This is the reason i don't post anymore/very rarely even go on the forums cuz i just get pissed about watching people complain! Everything has to be a big fiasco. I lost about half my army 1st turn because my 700 point plague tower went apoc with around 20 guys in it! Did i complain? No! I kept. Playing and made jokes about it cuz as sucky as it was, it was a good move and it was pretty funny. All im saying is putting restrictions on things makes the game dull.
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It is important for us to allow for the Apocalypse feel. It is important for us to let player see and fight against models they've never seen before and will not see outside of our Megabattle. It is also important for us to offer up the chance to play something close to the type of game someone is looking for.
Very good.
As people pay in, they will be asked how many points of superheavies / gargantuans they intend to field. I might suggest that the top five Order and top five Disorder players might be sent, as Ralph Kramden would say, "To the Moon, Alice, to the Moon!"
Alternately, let's plot the amount of superheavy points on a curve. I suspect there will be something like a bell curve with most people taking zero to two baneblades or equivalent. If the pattern is anything like last year, by far most players will be under the zero to two baneblades area of the curve. Then there will be a spike on the high end as a very few players will want to spend lots and lots more points on big models than everyone else.
You might not want to finalize what the table restrictions ought to be until a lot of people have signed up and we know what that curve is going to look like. Ideally, if the #11 player only wants 1200 points of superheavies, there might not need to be a lot of point limits. If this is the case, the differences between tables might be fluffy... the ice table slippery, the sewer table stinky, etc...
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Apocalypse is about pushing the game to extremes. We've spent a lot of time over the last few years looking at ways to reign this in, and I've got to say it causes way too much angst.
So this year I do not want to see any point or army restrictions on anyone. There are a few things that are beyond the scale, such as the no talking strategem, but that should be the extent of any limit.
I'm sorta curious to see how it pans out, we played a test game last year with no holds barred, and it was a lot of fun.
The restrictions should be: model is recognizable. The model is authorized by GW or on the board. And the model is painted, minimum 3 colours.
Other than that, it's Apocalypse, have at it! If that scares you don't sign up, there's only a limited number of spots somehow I think they'll be filled.
Cheers,
Alan
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I agree with Alan.
Also, since we're going to have one table with no superheavies/Gargantuan tables, can we have the unlimited table be truly unlimited? I'd like to see teammates being able to work off of each other's teleport homers, jump into each other's transports, enhance any of their allies' models with a psychic power, etc.
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I agree with Alan.
Also, since we're going to have one table with no superheavies/Gargantuan tables, can we have the unlimited table be truly unlimited? I'd like to see teammates being able to work off of each other's teleport homers, jump into each other's transports, enhance any of their allies' models with a psychic power, etc.
This might not be a bad idea. There are at least 10 veteran Apocalypse players, native to Battlegrounds, who have played each other frequently, who know the Apocalypse game and each other well enough to push extremes. You might consider letting the two table captains on the no holds barred table negotiate their own table rules... then wash your hands with respect to that table. If there are disagreements, let them settle it on their own. So long as the four all superheavy players can find six others who would be pleased to share a table with them, let them go crazy.
But the other four tables? There will be a lot of folk who don't do this anywhere near so often. There will be players very new to the environment. I'd stick by your guns and keep it simple and manageable. The veteran Apocalypse players might shake their heads and not be pleased by training wheels, but handling 60 players at 4000 points would be too much of a headache if you don't reign things in somewhat.
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Not sure I made myself clear. I think based on history we should not have any limits. Most of the problems last year with the moon came from measuring shenanigans. This year it's clear to all, it can't shoot at things standing at it's own feet. So, If someone drops an emperor in front of you gun for it's shadow and melta the bloody thing. We have proved that no holds Apoc work, if that's what people sign up for. So If people just turn up with their armies and play I feel confident it'll work out.
If however the idea of point restrictions is set in stone then I would suggest that the Apocalyptic table be the main event and therefore the large table. The smaller ones can be the 40k + tables.
The only reason the moon was chosen for that honor last year was because the bloody Titans wouldn't fit anywhere else.
Cheers,
Alan
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I agree Allen I had no supers last year but was sided by them to trade fire with the other
side we had a ball and I still had a few nids left in the end.
Its the big game there should'nt be limits on points its called a team we play together.
Dave
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This arguing is driving me crazy to the point I almost don't want to play. I find all these restrictions are against the spirit of the game. Your telling players who put sweat blood time and money into models that cannot otherwise be used in a normal game "sorry you want your big robot you have to play here on this table or not at all." Please correct me if I'm wrong but that's the interpretation I'm getting from players and chase.
I said this once ill say it again. Super heaviest can be delt with using any army with no super heavies. I believe Ian made this point very clear in an earlier post. Also as Allen said we tested games with no restrictions and had no problems. I understand for story purposes why there are restrictions such as the sewers since its not big enough but not the other tables. I want to bring stuff I don't get to use but it seems to me people are getting upset. If that is the case I simply wont play. I want to play appocolyps which is a game that has no restrictions and shit happens. Its all part of playing a Mega battle.
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My fear is that alot of people who consider themselves regulars are going to go down the same path as steve on this. The squeaky wheel seems to get the gease but if caution is not taken the mega battle might turn into a unicycle.
It is what it is.
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There is some guy that does Critical Mass, all 10-15 miles of it, on a unicycle. If we could only be that awesome.
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I will agree that almost any army can deal with almost any superheavy without takeing supers themselves but almost no army can deal with them if they don't prepare there list knowing there going to be there.
back when it was one big table a few people could load up on anti titan weapons and when the big scary walkers appeared they could teleport in to deal with them but with seperate tables we could easily have a situation where someone like rob swaps tables last minute and causes major issues on both tables. suddenly someones titanhammer squad has no target and someone else is looking at there 3 melta guns and 3 las cannons knowing they have already lost.
plus so far the restrictions read emperor titans are only allowed on that one table and no giant walkers or flyers allowed in the city's sewer system.
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I will agree that almost any army can deal with almost any superheavy without takeing supers themselves but almost no army can deal with them if they don't prepare there list knowing there going to be there.
back when it was one big table a few people could load up on anti titan weapons and when the big scary walkers appeared they could teleport in to deal with them but with seperate tables we could easily have a situation where someone like rob swaps tables last minute and causes major issues on both tables. suddenly someones titanhammer squad has no target and someone else is looking at there 3 melta guns and 3 las cannons knowing they have already lost.
plus so far the restrictions read emperor titans are only allowed on that one table and no giant walkers or flyers allowed in the city's sewer system.
This. Especially the bold part.
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I just wish people would learn to spell Alan :)
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This arguing is driving me crazy to the point I almost don't want to play. I find all these restrictions are against the spirit of the game.
Steve, there's no arguing. I asked for opinions / ideas and people are giving them.
Your telling players who put sweat blood time and money into models that cannot otherwise be used in a normal game "sorry you want your big robot you have to play here on this table or not at all." Please correct me if I'm wrong but that's the interpretation I'm getting from players and chase.
See below.
I said this once ill say it again. Super heaviest can be delt with using any army with no super heavies. I believe Ian made this point very clear in an earlier post.
Yep.
Also as Allen said we tested games with no restrictions and had no problems. I understand for story purposes why there are restrictions such as the sewers since its not big enough but not the other tables.
Yeah, and in those test games how many Emperors were there? If there were Emperors, how many people in the 5v5, 6v6, or whatever it was knew it was coming and were prepared for it? Josh explains the problem with the giant Titans in an earlier post. It has nothing to do with being *able* to handle one or not, it has to do with the, "surprise, an Emperor happened to deploy across from you and is literally going to kill everything you have. Had no clue it was going to happen? Too bad. Have fun!"
I want to bring stuff I don't get to use but it seems to me people are getting upset. If that is the case I simply wont play.
I don't think anyone is upset with the proposed table restrictions.
I want to play appocolyps which is a game that has no restrictions and shit happens. Its all part of playing a Mega battle.
And if you play on ANY of the tables that will happen. Currently, 30 of the 60 spots have ONE "restriction" which is "No Emperors". No one even has an Emperor outside of Nick (unless the black one gets a makeover). 10 of the remaining 30 spots literally have no restriction. 10 of the remaining 20 have restrictions rooted in "fluff" and, in my opinion, create a game that 10 people would like to see in the first place. The remaining 10 spots are totally up in the air, and MIGHT end up with restrictions based on predicted desires. What is wrong with that? Wouldn't I be doing a poor job if I didn't try and create play environments that my players want / might enjoy?
If Nick hadn't spent endless hours making a beautiful 5 foot tall Emperor last year, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.
Restricting tables to "no models in excess of 2500 points can be taken" is essentially the same as saying, "Nick, you've got to play on the Moon." What's the issue?
"Just show up with 4000 points of painted models and everything will be fine."
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I just wish people would learn to spell Alan :)
Until you are the most prolific 3-point shooter in NBA history, it's spelled Allen. Beantown, go Celtics! ;D
Or if you need an on-topic suggestion, you can make an Emperor Titan and give no one an excuse for not knowing your name!
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I just wish people would learn to spell Alan :)
Until you are the most prolific 3-point shooter in NBA history, it's spelled Allen. Beantown, go Celtics! ;D
I think you are giving people too much credit.
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Yeah, and in those test games how many Emperors were there? If there were Emperors, how many people in the 5v5, 6v6, or whatever it was knew it was coming and were prepared for it? Josh explains the problem with the giant Titans in an earlier post. It has nothing to do with being *able* to handle one or not, it has to do with the, "surprise, an Emperor happened to deploy across from you and is literally going to kill everything you have. Had no clue it was going to happen? Too bad. Have fun!"
I'm going to disagree here, last year’s targeting rules screwed up the whole Emperor experience, you are supposed to be able to get "under" it's guns. If however a major driver behind limiting the Emperor to the moon is that you think an Emperor will just mess up the aesthetic of the other tables then fair enough, I can live with that..
But if the worry is how the average Joe can counter an Emperor, maybe we need a test game. Would that help?
"Just show up with 4000 points of painted models and everything will be fine."
Yes, exactly! One of the proposed limits in this thread was to restrict total cost of all super heavy types to 2500. Not just one model. This is what I objected to.
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The sole reason for my decision to keep the Emperor Titans to one particular table IS entirely aesthetic in nature. To me, they are so much like pieces of terrain themselves that I want them to appear on a table that benefits from their presence. I was very pleased with our decision last year to put them on the moon table. This year, I would like them to remain off the main table again. I may change my mind about this in a future Megabattle, but I have a certain vision for the tables this year that is still a work in progress, and I'd like to see it through.
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"Just show up with 4000 points of painted models and everything will be fine."
I'm glad you made the comment about the black one needing a makeover before you said this. I hope you stick to this rule.
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Is there a limit of where I can field my 10 doomsday devices?
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I will agree that almost any army can deal with almost any superheavy without taking supers themselves but almost no army can deal with them if they don't prepare there list knowing there going to be there.
back when it was one big table a few people could load up on anti titan weapons and when the big scary walkers appeared they could teleport in to deal with them but with separate tables we could easily have a situation where someone like rob swaps tables last minute and causes major issues on both tables. suddenly someones titanhammer squad has no target and someone else is looking at there 3 melta guns and 3 las cannons knowing they have already lost.
plus so far the restrictions read emperor titans are only allowed on that one table and no giant walkers or flyers allowed in the city's sewer system.
The above is very pertinent. I think it safe to say that there will be players with zero to two baneblades or point equivalent all over the place. Most everyone ought to expect a few superheavies about, and have something to deal with it.
Perhaps instead of limiting people with huge collections of superheavies to one table, we might have intelligence as to where they are going to be deployed? Big titans or large concentrations of lesser superheavies can be taken down with foreknowledge and planning. Make the foreknowledge available so it is possible to plan.
Currently, our 'intelligence' is based on neither side being able to keep secrets very well. Last year it got messed up with the last minute shift of the Black Emperor. Wouldn't take much intelligence. I can almost call it now. Rob's Titan Legion will spread across the big table. Red Emperor on the moon. Assault titans positioned to go after the Red Emperor. If the Black Titan gets renovated, if anyone else wants to build a superheavy collection comparable to the above, there might be similar notice in advance where such collections will deploy?
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Is there a limit of where I can field my 10 doomsday devices?
I'm hoping this is a joke. If so, it's a bit funny. Still, there are codices that have things like doomsday devices. It is possible that a player might show up with an army and find himself on the opposite side of the table from a whole bunch of rocket launchers with huge warheads. The all superheavy army isn't the only sort of mismatch that can be created. Any army where a player spends all of his points on some very unusual model might be suspect.
Last year there was a very subjective rule that players should bring armies that are vaguely fun to go up against. There were a few players looking to find ways to break the game, forcing our gracious hosts to step in and just say no. I'd hope they don't have to do this again this year, but believe it is and should be in Derek and Chase's power to do so if necessary. I'm also inclined to think there should be no refund if such a player is being such a player.
More common than starting to build non-armies is starting rumors that one is building a non-army. A great deal of emotion and turmoil was created just by leaking rumors about stuff that was never intended to see the table. Is this really supposed to be part of the game? There are going to be enough real problems getting everyone's blood pressure up that we might want to avoid egging the other side on just for kicks. Should we allow and encourage people creating non-existant problems?
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More common than starting to build non-armies is starting rumors that one is building a non-army. A great deal of emotion and turmoil was created just by leaking rumors about stuff that was never intended to see the table. Is this really supposed to be part of the game? There are going to be enough real problems getting everyone's blood pressure up that we might want to avoid egging the other side on just for kicks. Should we allow and encourage people creating non-existant problems?
I think Bob makes a valid point here. However, how does one go about "policing" this sort of behavior? The answer, I think, is that it can't honestly be done. For starters, Derek and Chase could just eliminate all forms of "trash-talking/bragging", or whatever kind of banter that can be construed as such, but how would they even gauge something this subjective?
Last year, I hadn't even heard or was even aware of the so called "rumor spreading" until finally after the Megabattle was over (thankfully), but I'm pretty sure if everyone just keeps a cool head and open mind, we'll all feel a lot better about it this year. There's no avoiding any of the occasional "Order vs. Disorder" banter. No. Avoiding. At. All. So why get upset over it? People are going to say what they are going to say, whether others want them to or not. Baring this mind, what's the point of getting bent out of shape for it? To my understanding, some folks last year decided to drop out of the game due to the supposed drama that ensued from the trash-talk/bragging/whining. I'd like to not see that happen again.
Relax guys... It's just a game. ;)
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Nobody is bringing 10 Doomsday Devices. Dave's just trolling. And even if he wasn't, such a thing would never be approved for the the Megabattle.
I will make the futile gesture of asking people to stop being so reactionary, and trust that three years of past experience has imparted great wisdom to us on the colossal gulf that lies between what a person says they're going to do and what they actually do.
Please stop worrying and fretting about big stuff. It is my expectation that big stuff is going to be everywhere you look on every table but one. If you don't want to fight big stuff you have misunderstood the implication in the word MEGA. A table is provided where you can play with less super-heavies if that's your cup of tea. Efforts are being made to help people achieve the level of enjoyment they are looking for. Just trust in that and it will all work out fine.
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More common than starting to build non-armies is starting rumors that one is building a non-army. A great deal of emotion and turmoil was created just by leaking rumors about stuff that was never intended to see the table. Is this really supposed to be part of the game? There are going to be enough real problems getting everyone's blood pressure up that we might want to avoid egging the other side on just for kicks. Should we allow and encourage people creating non-existant problems?
That's half the fun.
That's not me being a jerk. That's me being serious. Having friendly banter back and forth is what makes the game fun.
I plan on changing all my weapons on the Banelord to turbolasers (strength D). It will be a Khornate Warlord!
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Please stop worrying and fretting about big stuff. It is my expectation that big stuff is going to be everywhere you look on every table but one. If you don't want to fight big stuff you have misunderstood the implication in the word MEGA. A table is provided where you can play with less super-heavies if that's your cup of tea. Efforts are being made to help people achieve the level of enjoyment they are looking for. Just trust in that and it will all work out fine.
I'm very comfy going against the odds and taking a pounding yet still winning my sector of the battle. 1 reaver and 2 warhounds have fallen under my power and more soon shall as well. Did I mention that I do not have any heavies?
Some banter isn't me style, but it can be fun to a point.I've had fun every mega I've been in. Derek and Chase has a pretty good grip on this after afew years and even with ever changing rules still can pull this off.
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I'm hoping this is a joke. If so, it's a bit funny. Still, there are codices that have things like doomsday devices. It is possible that a player might show up with an army and find himself on the opposite side of the table from a whole bunch of rocket launchers with huge warheads. The all superheavy army isn't the only sort of mismatch that can be created. Any army where a player spends all of his points on some very unusual model might be suspect.
Last year there was a very subjective rule that players should bring armies that are vaguely fun to go up against. There were a few players looking to find ways to break the game, forcing our gracious hosts to step in and just say no. I'd hope they don't have to do this again this year, but believe it is and should be in Derek and Chase's power to do so if necessary. I'm also inclined to think there should be no refund if such a player is being such a player.
More common than starting to build non-armies is starting rumors that one is building a non-army. A great deal of emotion and turmoil was created just by leaking rumors about stuff that was never intended to see the table. Is this really supposed to be part of the game? There are going to be enough real problems getting everyone's blood pressure up that we might want to avoid egging the other side on just for kicks. Should we allow and encourage people creating non-existant problems?
Ok Bob I am going to try and put this as nicely and calmly as possible. Keep your "scorpion" and fighters at home, and play on the table with no super heavies. This would solve your woe is me and my inability to play complex.
Derek and Chase are capable of pulling this off without the peanut gallery trying to drive their own personal agenda down their throats. This is a MEGABATTLE folks, not a regular game. If you dont like your stuff being moved off the table in piles then this might not be the best place for you to play.
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I will make the futile gesture of asking people to stop being so reactionary
q.v.
Ok Bob I am going to try and put this as nicely and calmly as possible. Keep your "scorpion" and fighters at home, and play on the table with no super heavies. This would solve your woe is me and my inability to play complex.
Bad manners + internet = bad combo.
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I will make the futile gesture of asking people to stop being so reactionary
q.v.
Ok Bob I am going to try and put this as nicely and calmly as possible. Keep your "scorpion" and fighters at home, and play on the table with no super heavies. This would solve your woe is me and my inability to play complex.
Bad manners + internet = bad combo.
I'll see your q.v. and raise you a Q.E.D.
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I'll see your q.v. and raise you a Q.E.D.
Q.E.D. does seem more appropriate than q.v.
Thank you for QCing my q.v. and suggesting better options, i.e., Q.E.D.
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I'll see your q.v. and raise you a Q.E.D.
Q.E.D. does seem more appropriate than q.v.
Thank you for QCing my q.v. and suggesting better options, i.e., Q.E.D.
I saw them selling battlefoam on QVC...
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I saw them selling battlefoam on QVC...
QFT
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So much for not spamming, store owner guy. ;)
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mmmm shallow and pedantic
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There were a few players looking to find ways to break the game, forcing our gracious hosts to step in and just say no. I'd hope they don't have to do this again this year, but believe it is and should be in Derek and Chase's power to do so if necessary. I'm also inclined to think there should be no refund if such a player is being such a player.
Comments like this, which are incredibly uninformed and almost universally self-serving, are part of why I dropped last year and why I refused to play this year.
We started a rumor about finding some hidden exploitation in the game and it spread like wildfire. It was a joke. People took it seriously, including the store owner, but no one actually ASKED us what we were bringing. We weren't really hiding anything. Hell, the idea of an Emperor on our side wasn't even in our minds at the time! Without actually finding out what was going on with our group, ultimatums were made and assumptions were regarded as facts. I'm not faulting anyone here, I just want the information out there.
Like always, we wanted to bring a tough game. In no way did we sit down with some sinister plan to ruin the megabattle for everyone. In no way did we attempt to break the game. We held back.
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One should always be careful when poking the bear. To say that you think it is great to have the powers that be remove a problematic component to the mega battle (whether it be game mechanic or player) is to invite situations.
Situations that may cause you to eat those very same words you spoke in praise of such actions. Just saying.
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There were a few players looking to find ways to break the game, forcing our gracious hosts to step in and just say no. I'd hope they don't have to do this again this year, but believe it is and should be in Derek and Chase's power to do so if necessary. I'm also inclined to think there should be no refund if such a player is being such a player.
Comments like this, which are incredibly uninformed and almost universally self-serving, are part of why I dropped last year and why I refused to play this year.
We started a rumor about finding some hidden exploitation in the game and it spread like wildfire. It was a joke. People took it seriously, including the store owner, but no one actually ASKED us what we were bringing. We weren't really hiding anything. Hell, the idea of an Emperor on our side wasn't even in our minds at the time! Without actually finding out what was going on with our group, ultimatums were made and assumptions were regarded as facts. I'm not faulting anyone here, I just want the information out there.
Like always, we wanted to bring a tough game. In no way did we sit down with some sinister plan to ruin the megabattle for everyone. In no way did we attempt to break the game. We held back.
Hmm... If you start rumors of "exploitation", if as they spread you do not quash them, are you surprised that your reputation takes a hit? In the paragraph following the one you quoted above, I suggested that we avoid spreading such rumors. I've nothing against good honest trash talk, but talking about exploiting holes in the rules or starting rumors of absurdly extreme armies that no one intends to field is not in all respects positive. At bottom, if anyone doesn't like the heat, they shouldn't play with matches.
Alas, the border between bringing a tough game and a sinister plot to ruin the game isn't as hard and firm as it might be. There are people who enjoy extreme armies. I have no problem with their enjoying and advocating for their preferred style of play so long as they enjoy playing against extreme armies as much as they enjoy playing extreme armies. As long as someone follows a cry for no limits by volunteering to play on the table with no limits, fine. If there are too many volunteers for one no limits table, let there be two such tables, or three.
While the two orderly all big model players haven't checked in yet, at this point no one on the Order side is proposing an army that exceeds the limits I proposed to Chase. The pattern is pretty close to last year's, though it is far too soon to say the pattern will hold. If Disorder too is holding close enough to last year's pattern, there is no need for discussion or heat.
There might be a need for some good honest trash talk. The rumor storms of last year seem to have a lingering effect.
Alas, after last year, Craftworld Elefayin isn't in much of a position to trash talk. Working on bringing a tough game, instead.
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There's probably no good way to manage this so it's probably best ignored, but it occurred to me that most infantry wouldn't be able to survive on the moon unless it was in some kind of fully-enclosed armor like power armor or something. I was thinking about deploying my guys on the moon and it occurred to me that at least for most of what I'd field that blood would boil, eyeballs, heads and hands would burst, and lungs would grumpily expel all their air.
Ignore or use as you see fit. :)
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There's probably no good way to manage this so it's probably best ignored, but it occurred to me that most infantry wouldn't be able to survive on the moon unless it was in some kind of fully-enclosed armor like power armor or something....
We had that conversation about three weeks ago in the Custom Ideas thread (which is over 20 pages long; otherwise I'd dig and find the relevant posts for you.) I believe our conclusion was that no models would be excluded, as GW supports the idea that any army would somehow work in any environment. IG would be issued rebreathers, Orks could live for hours in a vacuum, etc. Environment fluff generally does not need to be WYSIWYG.
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Fair enough. If it wasn't deemed sufficiently "fun" to require some sort of WYSIWYG solution for that, I don't mind a bit. Just wanted to get it out there in case it hadn't been thought of.
Maybe the moon has atmosphere generators a la LV246!
And the Imperial Navy should consider the same solution... "Dust off, nuke it from orbit. Only way to be sure..."
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So, any set rules for the tables yet? We're about a month and a half away and it'd be nice to be able plan our strategies around the tables.
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So, any set rules for the tables yet? We're about a month and a half away and it'd be nice to be able plan our strategies around the tables.
It's difficult to know for sure at this point. It doesn't look like we're going to get our target number of 60 players this year. It looks more like 40-50. I can't really give the table plans until I know how many tables we're actually going to need.
Hopefully soon, I'll be able to target a more accurate number.