Battleground Games Forum
Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: Chase on April 05, 2011, 01:04:01 PM
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Here is an email I was sent this morning:
Hey Chase,
Sorry to keep inundating you with questions, but I have one from the Grey Knights Codex that people can't agree on. One of the upgrades you can take is a "pair of falchions" instead of the normal force sword. The entry in the codex says they give you +1 attack. Is that in addition to the +1 I'd get from having two close combat weapons, or is that the +1 that they're talking about. I'd assumed it was in addition, or they wouldn't have bothered to put it in, but I wanted a rules update before the tournament (if at all possible).
Thanks,
xxxx
Obviously I have no idea what the answer is. Please help. :)
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Sorry, I get the argument now. Lack of sleeping, just got back from adepticon.
The rule says "The wielder of a pair of Nemesis falchions has +1 attack" My guess would be that this is intended to count as 2 CC weapons together provide +1 attack because they can't normally do so. But there is room for argument with this one.
Tough call. Will have to look at the rule book tonight.
My gut is that by RAW it would give you +2.
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Wargear in question is on Page 54 of the codex, and it reads, "The wielder of a pair of Nemesis Falchions has +1 attack."
Quickly flipping through, it appears this upgrade costs between 5-15 points, depending on the model.
I believe the GKs get +1 attack total, not +2. Just a belief, not a hard fact. There won't be any hard facts until that beautiful FAQ lands. It would be really nice if GW started beta testing...
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Fluff != Rules.
It gives you +1 attack. So now you have 2.
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Beleive it or not GW does actually beta test or they did.
The issue is they don't listen to their Beta tester's.
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Grey Knight's no longer have 2 close combat weapons. A storm bolter is a 2 handed weapon. So the standard GK has only 1 attack and 2 on the charge. With falchion's this is increased by 1 attack.
**Grey Knights use to have a special rule that allowed storm bolters to count as a pistol hence the extra attack, this rule no longer exists.
(Full disclosure, I sent the email).
I read this as getting +2 attacks total. The wargear gives you +1 attack, and the game-wide rules for having two close combat weapons give you another. If the rules were supposed to be +1 attack they could have left out the rule and had the extra attack come from two CCWs, or specifically put in a line about "this is in place of the +1 attack for having two ccws". Those are my 2 cents.
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Fluff != Rules.
It gives you +1 attack. So now you have 2.
This ^
You now have, essentially, the +1 attack normally for two CC weapons
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this could easily go either way. the notation about getting +1 attack could simply be due to purchaseing them as a single weapon upgrade. in most armies to get two weapons you purchase two weapons with the GK falchions you buy it once and despite being described as a pair they have to clarify of they actualy give the benefit of two weapons, in the same way that despite a twin linked weapon being two guns stuck together they only get one shot.
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Doesn't it say "a pair of". I would assume it means that it counts as your two CC weapons and that is why it gives +1 attack. Besides is there any way to get those and two CC weapons anyway?
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Great, even when GW writes a clear rule, it gets misunderstood.
Does the pair of falchions state that you count as having a second CCW, NO! It does not. It is a weapon upgrade that gives you +1 attack. IF they wanted you to have +2 attacks, it would state that it counted as having a second close combat weapon and gave an additional +1 attack.
Hopefully this is a sign that GW is taking a lesson from Privateer press. by having less effects, and more ways to cause it = simple rules discussions.
Hey what does having a pistol in CC give you? +1 attack.
Hey what does having a pair of nemesis falchions give you? +1 attack.
Seems really simple to me. "pair" doesn't mean anything in GW rule terms. It is likely so you can make bada$$ looking dudes with two swords modeled on them.
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Hey what does wielding a pair of lightning claws give you? +1 attack and rerolls
Hey what does wielding a pair of thunderhammers give you? +1 attack and Thunderhammer Bonus.
Big Rule Book two of the same special weapons grants +1 attack in addition to the weapons special bonuses. GK dex the Falchions special property is +1 attack. BRB+Dex=+2.
If analyzed from points perspective is +1 attack better in any capacity than a thunderhammer that is a force weapon with daemonbane that takes +str as multiplicative IE str4 GK +hammerhand is str5 with a daemon hammer hes Str10? Nope no contest.
Is 1 attack better than +2 initiative? Nope no contest
This definately requires a good solid faq'ing but RAW its +2 attacks total. Fluff wise is 50/50.
Im running GK this weekend and not running a single falchion but working to a clear resolution with the smart folks of BG community will help get this ruling correct on the local circuit.
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Your ability to not cite properly does not help your case. Also, inflamatory comments won't win you friends, either.
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As a side note, these are not "close combat weapons", they are "Nemesis falcions".
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Like Rich said, its nemesis falcions. GW made wrote this edition to state that having a non-special secondary weapon did not give you bonus attacks with the special weapons. Hence having a pistol and a power-fist only lets you attack with your profile attacks (plus charging attacks). The pair specification is there to give you the benifit the bonus close-combat attack and the ability that goes with having a nemesis weapon.
Example: Hq with 1 attack on his profile wields the nemesis falcion and a pistol. He has 1 attack in close combat plus the ignoring armor and instant death lovin of a force weapon. Hq with 1 attack on his profile and a pair of nemesis falcions, 2 attacks plus the ignoring armor and instant death lovin of a force weapon.
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http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600/354378.page (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600/354378.page)
Using the appropriated cited rules, please make your case.
(http://i52.tinypic.com/30k3o11.jpg)
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Here is the response from my GW rep:
Chase:
Took a straw poll here in the Trade office and we are favoring the +1. However, going strictly RAW the +2 could be justified. I would rule fort he +1 and let people know in advance. Hope this helps.
Semper Fidelis,
xxxx
I think the intent is that it's number of attacks +1. I won't get in to my reasons for this as they don't matter much.
Anyways, +1 attack is how we will play it at the Doubles.
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Here is the response from my GW rep:
Chase:
Took a straw poll here in the Trade office and we are favoring the +1. However, going strictly RAW the +2 could be justified. I would rule fort he +1 and let people know in advance. Hope this helps.
Semper Fidelis,
xxxx
I think the intent is that it's number of attacks +1. I won't get in to my reasons for this as they don't matter much.
Anyways, +1 attack is how we will play it at the Doubles.
I endorse this message ;D
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LMAO.
really.
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O wow I commend the use of photoshop and/or adobe creative suite to create rich's last post.
This thread is getting artistic, I like it. Next thread less talky more construction paper and colored pencils.
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http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600/354378.page (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600/354378.page)
Using the appropriated cited rules, please make your case.
(http://i52.tinypic.com/30k3o11.jpg)
"Fluff-wise" the entry talks about the falchions having special mechanics inside of them that allow them to be wielded faster than normal weapons. So according to the fluff I should probably get more bonus attacks than, for example, my IG veteran sergeant with laspistol and ccw. But I'm fine with going by whatever Chase decides for the tournament.
On another note, if it ends up being +1, I'm not sure why anyone would take 1 falchion when for the same points they could take 2 halberds or a daemonhammer. I hope this gets faq'd soon.
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Chaos Space Marines live and work in the warp. Fluff wise, they should be the best psychers around. While I'm fine with using what ever is decided by the rules, I would really like JotWW and Wings of Sanguinious for my chaos marines.
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You cant have my JOTWW!!
Its a wolf thing!!
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You're right. Keep it, it's probably all slobbered on and crap.
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I'd prefer lash over wings and jaws
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I'd prefer lash over wings and jaws
How about Lash and JotWW? I can't see how that could possibly be abused in any way...
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Chaos Space Marines live and work in the warp. Fluff wise, they should be the best psychers around. While I'm fine with using what ever is decided by the rules, I would really like JotWW and Wings of Sanguinious for my chaos marines.
Oh, though it seems like 10,000 years to us, the Chaos Marines may have only been there for like two days. The best psykers are clearly should come from the Space Wolves who have forsaken the Warp and are the sworn enemies of the galaxy's greatest sorcerers. Clearly.
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Man rule books are just so outdated guys, how about we just use whatever rules we feel like because we feel it is within the fluff guidelines of the game.
My Death Company get rending again SWEEETTTT!!!
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Man rule books are just so outdated guys, how about we just use whatever rules we feel like because we feel it is within the fluff guidelines of the game.
My Death Company get rending again SWEEETTTT!!!
In a non-tournament setting, that's what I think should be done.
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@the_trooper,
That wasn't my intent in anyway, my apologies. I was genuine with my comment about the smart people here as I also play at Vets in RI and rules discussion is about as fruitful as walking backwards upstairs. Everytime Im at plainsville I partake in rules discussions for clarification especially with a new codex.
I may have come off a little snappy as this is about the 5th forum post I am partaking in discussing it.
Chase has spoken and the rulings all good as Im not bringing falchions this week anyways, but have another tourney on the 30th where I may, and will almost certainly take some if the +2 ruling is taken at that tourney.
Paladins falchions librarian banner ws5 str 6 6A on the charge if the ruling or the FAQ is +2.
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Chase: Thanks for the ruling, even though its not quite the one I was hoping for! And as per that last post, I didn't even think about paladins/terminators with falchions, I was only thinking about strike squads, who would get 4A on the charge. It might be a bit broken to give +2 to terminators.
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Thanks for clearing that up, Grandmaster_Octavian.
Intent can be hard over the internet.
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Chase: Thanks for the ruling, even though its not quite the one I was hoping for! And as per that last post, I didn't even think about paladins/terminators with falchions, I was only thinking about strike squads, who would get 4A on the charge. It might be a bit broken to give +2 to terminators.
No prob. :)
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So what about waffles? Theyre fluffy. But they dont give +2 attacks, just 440 Calories
1 Nemesis force swords = 1 attack
2 Nemesis force swords = 2 attacks
2(with bonus blade) - 1(base) = 1. 1 extra attack, that isn't fluff thats just called logic.