Battleground Games Forum
Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: the_trooper on April 16, 2011, 03:02:06 PM
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With the new shiney bandwagon has brought with itself a horde of new players of Grey Knights. Since they are no longer Daemonhunters, I figured they no longer hunt daemons and prefer just being painted in a simple paint scheme.
Bad jokes aside, I have been considering dusting off my Chaos Daemons army which is mostly just left overs from my Chaos Space Marines. I wanted to build a list designed to fight Grey Knights. In doing so, I reckon I could beat up on other MEQ armies and be ok against things like Guard and such.
The list itself 1850:
HQ:
Bloodthirster
-Blessing of the blood god
The Blue Scribes
Skulltaker on Juggernaught
Elites:
4 Bloodcrushers
3 Bloodcrushers (Skulltaker hangs out here)
4 Flamers
Troops:
2 x 8 Bloodletters
2 x 9 Pink horrors with Bolt
Fast Attack:
3 x 4 Screamers of Tzeentch
Heavy Support:
Soulgrinder with Phlem (Str 8, AP 3 Large blast)
Daemon prince with blessing, ironhide, Mark of Khorne, Wings
Seeing as Blessing of the Blood God grants "The Daemon has a 2+ invulnerable save against wounds caused by psychic powers or force weapons", the bloodthirster will be a house against GKs in CC, same with Skulltaker. I mean, a 2+ invulnerable in CC is awesome.
Thoughts on the list?
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Isn't Blessing of the Blood God a gift? in that case they can take that away from you with a psychic power (I think it's called dark excommunication). Still, not everyone has that psychic power.
Also, you may want to take bloodletters in squad sizes of 16 -- they need to be able to survive an initial round of shooting as well as being struck at first if you're assaulting a squad of grey knights armed with halberds (which are initiative 6 in CC).
I'm still going through the Grey Knights codex myself so I'm sure there's stuff I'm missing.
Mike
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Good point about dark excommunication but on the upside, invulnerable saves are still there and some of the scariest stuff the list will bring aren't gifts but special rules. But Hellblades are gifts from Khorne. Duly noted.
I was considering larger sizes for them but being able to have more bodies on the field might be a boon. The original list had 16 so I may go back to it.
I figure all the bolt of tzeentch spam, screamers and monstrous creatures should be adequate anti tank, do you agree?
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Pink horrors suck ass for bolt they never hit
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You sound bitter.
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I like the list, Blessing of the blood god is still good especially against force weapons since I am not sure they even need to activate them to get the save. Plus only librarians and dread knights have excommunication I think. My only suggestions would be to either run skulltaker on chariot or in a unit of 5 bloodletters. You are going to want to use Skulltaker against the dread knight and don't want excommunication on the crushers. Skulltaker can take him alone anyway.
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So, the plan is to assault Grey Knights? Don't, don't do it.
I hate to suggest it, but mono-Tzeentch bolt spam gives one the best chance against an all-comer GK list. (I'm with Ed, I can never roll to hit with only BS 3.) That said, an anti-Daemon GK list will wreck an anti-GK Daemon list. Dark Excommunication alone is the stuff of horror. The only attempt at balance is that its a psychic test with only LD 9.
Grey Knights cost more than other MEQs because they have strong assault deterrents. Their grenades alone screw with assault something fierce, never mind the force (power) weapons.
However, Grey Knights still die like other MEQs.
I'll think this over, see if I can come up with something...
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If you run Bloodthirsters or 4 Heralds of Khorne with Blessing of the Blood God, 3 DPs with Blessing and Flesh Hounds (who come with Blessing), they are all suddenly much more resilient against GKs, at least in assault. This, of course, presumes no Dark Excommunication or other GK shenanigans. Something to consider.
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I wouldn't worry about GK in assault. Their shooting is whats amazing.
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Agreed
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Every Daemon army needs to survive at least one round of shooting, that's always an issue. Is there a GK list that raises the bar above other current shooting lists? I've seen some impressive lists, but nothing that really raises the bar above other competitive shooting lists and little if anything that changes a Daemon player's overall strategy.
What GKs do in assault must be pointed out, as most Daemon armies rely heavily (if not entirely) on assault. In the_trooper's original list, only 5 out of 14 units have a shooting attack.
I still think bolt-spam is a Daemon player's best bet.
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Shooting GK are disgusting at mid-short range which most daemons deep strike into. A strictly shooting GK army as Mr. Hobin has pointed out to me can lay down 120+ shots per round only counting S5+ shots. Leafblower guard at max strength I believe is around 56.
The only thing daemons should have trouble beating in close combat in the GK army is grenade bearing death cults and dread knights (dark excommunication). Purifiers are great but not as much so against MSU daemons. Strike squads are the biggest enemy for daemons because it puts them at range to get two rounds of full strength shooting instead of one but the strike squads aren't optimal against others.
Anyway, I am kinda derailing. The list will change depending on what type of GK army it is really. If it shooty; go slaanesh heavy to deep strike in the back field out of their heavy fire range than use speed to get in the next turn. If it HTH based than play Khorne heavy IMO. I have only played 3 games against new GK so I am still learning.
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Every Daemon army needs to survive at least one round of shooting, that's always an issue. Is there a GK list that raises the bar above other current shooting lists? I've seen some impressive lists, but nothing that really raises the bar above other competitive shooting lists and little if anything that changes a Daemon player's overall strategy.
I'm not going to make a list for you right now, but I will point out their strengths.
1. Mass stormbolters.
2. Pyscannons are absurd.
3. 2x TWL Autocannon Dreads with psybolts are completely insane.
4. LOL psybolts on razorbacks
All of this fires atleast 24" on the move. You have an amazingly mobile, high accuracy firebase.
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Ben, if you fail to see the potential of the codex I don't think there's anything I could say to change your mind.
Okay.
For everyone else actually interested in this discussion, Bill has two excellent points: 1) GKs can excel at mid-to-short range shooting and 2) Daemon-success depends on the GK list.
1) Psycannon spam is likely going to show up. I'm curious if Soul Grinders can play a role in countering this. I have to do some mathhammer to figure out whether 2+/3+ to wound with a combination of armor and/or invulnerable saves are better or worse than 6s to rend/pen Soul Grinder front armor 13.
For what it's worth, Soul Grinders can also outrange Psycannons, which means they don't have to deep strike into the firezone (nor do the rest of the Daemons). They're big, so they could help provide cover for the more vulnerable Daemon units. I think there's some potential using them as a beachhead. (I know it sounds like I've contradicted my own strategies, but I'm just spit-balling in vacuum.)
Daemons will need to find a way to force GKs to move, to create room in the backfield while reducing their firepower.
2) If we take Bill's advice and apply it to an all-comer anti-GK list, one will need splashes of Khorne and Slaanesh.
Nurgle can have a role too in the troops slot. Plaguebearers are the most resilient Troops and can help provide cover to faster units like Fiends and Seekers. I've also been mulling over ICs hiding in squads of Nurglings. 9 Nurglings, 27 wounds, 117 points. Stick them in cover for a 3+ cover save, or have them go to ground for a 2+ save. They should help soak up most of the GK firepower.
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1. I spoke with Rich tonight about Soulgrinders. We were both a little skeptical because of the strength 8 TWL autocannons you should expect from several dreadnoughts. Daemon Princes seem like they may be a better option. Tzeentch ones, specifically.
2. MSUs of Fiends and loads of Tzeentch Heralds on chariots seem like the best units to counter GK with. Both will be hard to drop and can take out mass Razorbacks fairly well.
I think you hit the nail on the head with the plaguebearers. Their durability is essential if you plan on winning short of tabling (which is unlikely).
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What does MSU mean?
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Multiple small units.
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So Ian, with that, we're looking at...
HQ
Herald of Tzeentch, Chariot, Bolt, Master of Sorcery - 100
Herald of Tzeentch, Chariot, Bolt, Master of Sorcery - 100
Herald of Tzeentch, Chariot, Bolt, Master of Sorcery - 100
Herald of Tzeentch, Chariot, Bolt, Master of Sorcery - 100
Elite
Fiends of Slaanesh x6 - 180
Fiends of Slaanesh x6 - 180
Fiends of Slaanesh x6 - 180
Heavy
Daemon Prince, MoT, BoT - 140
Daemon Prince, MoT, BoT - 140
Daemon Prince, MoT, BoT - 140
That's 1360 of 1850.
Then?
Troops
Plaguebearers x6, Icon - 115
Plaguebearers x6, Icon - 115
Plaguebearers x6 - 90
Plaguebearers x6 - 90
Plaguebearers x5 - 75
1845.
Does that look about right?
What's the strategy?
I would agree that conceding the mid-field against GK is sound. What I envision that might work is Daemons hammering the GK on one side of the board until the GK have no choice but to wheel around, at which point Daemons can drop in the backfield.
The Plaguebearers can land ahead of the Fiends to help give the Fiends cover. I'm of the opinion that the Fiends are more valuable than the Daemon Princes, so the DPs can land in front of the Fiends to grant cover if necessary. Otherwise, I picture the chariots and DPs on the flank causing trouble. That all sound about right to you?
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I have to admit that I really don't know exactly how this should all come together. I'm much more comfortable discussing which units are effective. I'll leave the rest to you more experienced daemon players. Anyway, here are some more thoughts.
My gut says 4 heralds may be too many. 2 or 3 with an additional anti-infantry attack would probably do better.
I'm not sure what the optimal DP load out should be.
That's a lot of plague bearers. A few small Horror squads could be threatening and draw fire from the more important units, while still being effective if ignored.
I think this is definitely heading towards something good, though.
EDIT: Unholy Strength on the Fiends would be useful, too. Poppin' armor like champs.
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Only one Fiend model would get the Unholy Might upgrade, but I see your point. When the Fiends hit, they need to kill as much as possible. Giving one model twice the chance to pen has to be win.
I love the Chariot of Slaanesh for its cheap cost and amazing flexibility. It can handle vehicles and infantry. I imagine Bill might have a kind word or two for Khorne heralds. :D
Daemon Princes are tricky, because their upgrades are so damn expensive. Most of what's shooting them is invulnerable so MoT for 4+ invuln is good. Considering Psybolt bolters wounding on 4+, that's not something I look forward to. I like the bolt princes, but Nurgle princes would last marginally longer.
With some tweaks...
HQ
Herald of Tzeentch, Chariot, Bolt, Master of Sorcery - 100
Herald of Tzeentch, Chariot, BoT, Master of Sorcery - 100
Herald of Slaanesh, Chariot, Unholy Might - 75
Herald of Slaanesh, Chariot, Unholy Might - 75
Elite
Fiends of Slaanesh x6, UM - 190
Fiends of Slaanesh x6, UM - 190
Fiends of Slaanesh x6, UM - 190
Troops
Plaguebearers x6, Icon - 115
Plaguebearers x6, Icon - 115
Plaguebearers x6 - 90
Pink Horrors x4 & Changeling, BoT - 100
Pink Horrors x5, BoT - 95
Heavy
Daemon Prince, MoT, BoT - 140
Daemon Prince, MoT, BoT - 140
Daemon Prince, MoT, BoT - 140
1830
This list doesn't appear to be dissimilar from other popular Daemon lists.
Another idea is to swap a Bolt Prince for two Screamer x5 squads (80 points). That's bring the list to an even 1850. I'm not crazy about Screamers myself, as I can never get them to work properly.
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Screamers aren't totally terrible. They can provide cover, harass vehicles, and stop obnoxious tank shocks.
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Screamers aren't totally terrible. They can provide cover, harass vehicles, and stop obnoxious tank shocks.
They're also great for last-minute objective-stealing shenanigans. They're so cheap, it's hard to resist them.
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horrors suck would anyone like to buy some horrors?
i think breath of chaos is the best bet with bolt princes you'd have to show them it would be a bad idea to leave their razorback i use razorback cause i think they are the best but it could be a other transport.
freinds are gonna suck CC is not wanted at all FLAMERS in caps see where im going with this breath and bolt in large numbers.
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This all looks like good stuff to me. Horrors are always handy to have if for nothing other than the 5 pt changeling. Bs3 bolt does suck though. Even of you fill all 6 slots you only get 3 hits.
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This all looks like good stuff to me. Horrors are always handy to have if for nothing other than the 5 pt changeling. Bs3 bolt does suck though. Even of you fill all 6 slots you only get 3 hits.
I noticed that the Changeling is marginally better against GKs, because of their marginally lower LD across the board. Turning some of that GK firepower on itself would be boss.
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I would say drop it back to plaguebearer spam, but keep one unit of horrors with the changeling and bolt. Chariots are a solid. Nurgle princes are ok, but theyre more of a close combat MC, and thats not what you want to have against grey knights, although wounding on a 2+ is pretty awesome to do. Also, no fateweaver? I thought the interwebs didn't allow daemons without fateweaver.
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I would say drop it back to plaguebearer spam, but keep one unit of horrors with the changeling and bolt. Chariots are a solid. Nurgle princes are ok, but theyre more of a close combat MC, and thats not what you want to have against grey knights, although wounding on a 2+ is pretty awesome to do. Also, no fateweaver? I thought the interwebs didn't allow daemons without fateweaver.
Then you're not up on your interwebs! Competitive Daemon lists generally don't have Fateweaver. Too many points, and fairly easy to manage with volume of fire and/or tank shock. Or by not shooting at him, at all. Which is harder for me to do? Succeed on a 5+ invul re-roll or a 3+? I keep bringing Fateweaver around until I get the models I actually want to run. He's fun, he's different, but he also demands units within a 6" bubble, which presents the choice of being better defensively or going where I need to go.
Effective Nurgle Princes get very expensive, very quick. The volume of GK Str 5 fire makes T6 not as awesome.