Battleground Games Forum
Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: Benjamin on September 23, 2011, 01:51:03 AM
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I want to find out why the Vogen League campaign didn't catch enough interest to get off the ground. Only 6 people showed up for an event meant to accommodate 20, and so it folded. :(
Any future efforts from the store would benefit greatly from this discussion. Time and effort went into planning the event, and that's seemingly for naught. So think of it as an informal poll.
Why didn't you play? Time, commitment, entry fee, points, too long of a campaign, prize ambiguity?
I think the campaign is a great idea and so do the people who showed up to play. I would like to see something like this in the future, but apparently changes are required at a minimum.
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As far as store events go, I'd much rather a standard tournament. But that's just my two cents.
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I was excited for the Campaign to me it brought something a Regular Tournament could not bring and that was the bigger picture of where your battles played out in the world. You lose a game in a tournament and ya you go down in ranking but This your losing ground in the bigger war losing a valuable strategic asset. To me the default limit of 2000 probably scared off a few people who were newer to the game.
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I've all ready played it a year ago. (which is like the only case for you)
I feel the plainville community is to young needs more roots. What i mean is it has a lot more younger players which is not a bad thing in fact its a really good thing more then you might understand. What I'm about to say is in NO WAY ragging on chase and if you take this the negatively please ignore it, the problem in with is see this outcome was from the wrong type of hype, and the hype that was giving might have not hit a home run with the newer players.What i mean is When i played in the League in Abington a little over a year ago there was people telling me how great it was going to be and how much fun i could have and it wasn't serious, becuase of this. This is when i really started playing 40k instead of maybe hear and there. I got to meet great people it was that plan and simple which lead to more connections and games. I know for a fact that some plainville thursday players play with their friends and really don't expand from there there are cases where i am wrong like when ben sets up games for people. Sure over time the barriers from the mini groups could slowly brake over time, But this league could really help make bg community progress faster. It really sad that it failed. I did not think it wasn't going to happen, but i had a feeling that some people might not join. what could fix it could be like what happen to me peer pressure. I mean hey i wanted to meet and play more people and this league made it happen.
I am really tired now ive been up a very long time so sorry if this doesn't make any sense.
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Couple things from my perspective.
League play is an entirely different beast from tournies and so on and in that regard needs to be treated as such. Because leauge play is done over a long period of time you run the risk of MANY more schedule conflicts and so on. Trying to get 10+ gamers to commite to EVERY league day will start the process of elimination. My experience is that even if it was just a 5 minute meeting every thursday I couldnt commit to that do to famil commitments and so on, this doesnt mean that a scheduled meeting day cant work. But the choosing of that day has to be worked out far in advance with as many of the intended players as possible, which in its own right makes the process very difficult.
On the flip side of that I am a tourny dog I enjoy tournies in all shapes and sizes. SO when I make time it is for that 1 purpose.
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I would have done it had I had 2000 points and a proper competitive list at that. I love the idea of campaigns! When I read the section in the 40k rulebook on running campaigns I (before I even had any idea how to play) was hooked on the idea. Campaigns are awesome, they tie the world of 40k together and make your battles feel purposeful and, to put it bluntly, more epic. If something like this starts up again in a few months I'm definitely in. It's to bad it failed, most likely due to players like me, I hope if a campaign starts again that it has a better turn out.
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Truthfully I haven't been on the forum all that much lately so I only just heard about it about 3 days ago, and while I REALLY REALLY wanted to go and play I unfortunately had other responsibilities that kept me from going. And here I was going to call BG today and ask if there was a way to weasel into the campaign after it started :-[
Sorry to hear it didn't work out, I hope they consider it again in the future.
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ya i think Abington's was more worked out in store than online i could be wrong but i thought that was the way it went. also i think there was more planning and pressuring time before so to speak that got everything running. also maybe something could be worked were everyone never had to show up at the same point. you could just tell people they needed to have a list with there move and 3-5 alts by a certain day and had to have played a game and made a dice roll or something to that effect sometime during the week. that way everyone only ever had to show up together twice, once at the beginning to setup everything and once at the end to see the outcome and for awards and possible prizes.
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I would have done it had I had 2000 points and a proper competitive list at that. I love the idea of campaigns!
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If something like this starts up again in a few months I'm definitely in. It's to bad it failed, most likely due to players like me, I hope if a campaign starts again that it has a better turn out.
This is pretty much my reason. If I had 2000 points worth of stuff to run with and Thursday nights free, I'd have been all over that. Maybe in the near future I'll be able to join in.
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ya i think Abington's was more worked out in store than online i could be wrong but i thought that was the way it went. also i think there was more planning and pressuring time before so to speak that got everything running. also maybe something could be worked were everyone never had to show up at the same point. you could just tell people they needed to have a list with there move and 3-5 alts by a certain day and had to have played a game and made a dice roll or something to that effect sometime during the week. that way everyone only ever had to show up together twice, once at the beginning to setup everything and once at the end to see the outcome and for awards and possible prizes.
something like this was setup sending emails to chase and stuff buy I guess people didnt understand that
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something like this was setup sending emails to chase and stuff buy I guess people didnt understand that
I don't think most of that was included in the original draft posted, and people may not have gone back after everything was solidified.
Solid feedback, everyone. I didn't realize the campaign in Abington was more organically grown. Everyone is bringing good points to the table. So many considerations and angles!
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I was signed up for it, wished it had gone off, hopefully we can try again in a couple months or something.
as for what went wrong...
cause: Seems like it was bad timing, a few regulars had other responsibilities
fix: hopefully the next time it is scheduled people will have open schedules
cause: Others DID want in but couldn't swing the 2k points
fix: i think this would of fixed itself, 2k was just the "default" i personally and i"m sure others in the campaign woul of gone down to 1500 or ever 1000 if the thats all the opponent could swing
cause: hype? it was presented with plenty of notice on the website but not so much in the store
fix: next time have the map and some fluff posted in the store weeks in advance, make an announcement every Thursday during normal 40k to get interest from those who maybe don't follow the forums.
cause: "couldn't make every Thursday for league night"
fix: i don't see how this is a problem, hell i was signed up and knew there were several thusdays i wouldn't be able to make because i was goign to be on duty. the fix is ALREADY in the rules, if your not going to be there letthe store know ahead of time and your move will be done for you, BAM.
-Jason
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I think the biggest problem was that the campaign lacked a clear organizer to rally people and stoke interest. Someone spearheading the campaign would do two things:
1. Make sure that people know what is going on and be a source for questions. It sounds like people didn't realize that it wasn't neccessary to be there on Thursdays and that you don't need to have 2000 points. That could have been found out reading through a giant post, or it could have been found out by having someone ask 'hey, are you playing in the campaign?' and responding 'I don't know, I don't really have 2000 points of stuff' and hearing 'oh, that's totally no problem'.
2. Inspire confidence in the campaign. I know I almost didn't sign up because I've run a campaign before, and I know it takes a ton of work to make sure everything is running smoothly. And I still have no idea who was supposed to be running this. Which made me think that it would probably fall apart. If I wasn't there every Thursday night anyway, I wouldn't have made a special trip for just that reason. Knowing that someone is in charge would make me think that it is more likely to be an enjoyable experience.
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This is all very interesting to me.
Unfortunately, it all seems to translate into, "Chase isn't there on Thursday nights."
Which is a giant bummer.
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As far as store events go, I'd much rather a standard tournament. But that's just my two cents.
I view a tournament and a league as apples and oranges. /shrug
To me the default limit of 2000 probably scared off a few people who were newer to the game.
It definitely did, which is unfortunate because it shouldn't have. 2000 points were not required. I could have let people know this, and a bazillion other things if I were there on Thursdays.
the problem in with is see this outcome was from the wrong type of hype, and the hype that was giving might have not hit a home run with the newer players.What i mean is When i played in the League in Abington a little over a year ago there was people telling me how great it was going to be and how much fun i could have and it wasn't serious, becuase of this.
This is probably right. I feel like if I were there on Thursdays to create buzz and to hype it, it would have done much better.
I would have done it had I had 2000 points and a proper competitive list at that.
A perfect example of an opinion a quick convo could have changed. Leagues are fun, casual, and targeted towards everyone.
Some of the blame should be put on me for being so out of touch with the fact that a fair number of players can't field 2000 points.
ya i think Abington's was more worked out in store than online i could be wrong but i thought that was the way it went. also i think there was more planning and pressuring time before so to speak that got everything running.
Some of Seth's points were covered in the posting. What he says here is right though. In Abington I set the league up on a night I was there, I knew the 40k players very well, some "movers and shakers" were behind it and helping me promote it. Really, it boils down to not having me there to hype and answer questions. That's extremely frustrating for me. :(
I would have done it had I had 2000 points and a proper competitive list at that. I love the idea of campaigns!
This is pretty much my reason. If I had 2000 points worth of stuff to run with and Thursday nights free, I'd have been all over that. Maybe in the near future I'll be able to join in.
But you didn't need 2000 points or to be there on Thursdays. :( Again, something I could have easily let people know if others did not.
I was signed up for it, wished it had gone off, hopefully we can try again in a couple months or something.
as for what went wrong...
cause: Seems like it was bad timing, a few regulars had other responsibilities
fix: hopefully the next time it is scheduled people will have open schedules
cause: Others DID want in but couldn't swing the 2k points
fix: i think this would of fixed itself, 2k was just the "default" i personally and i"m sure others in the campaign woul of gone down to 1500 or ever 1000 if the thats all the opponent could swing
cause: hype? it was presented with plenty of notice on the website but not so much in the store
fix: next time have the map and some fluff posted in the store weeks in advance, make an announcement every Thursday during normal 40k to get interest from those who maybe don't follow the forums.
cause: "couldn't make every Thursday for league night"
fix: i don't see how this is a problem, hell i was signed up and knew there were several thusdays i wouldn't be able to make because i was goign to be on duty. the fix is ALREADY in the rules, if your not going to be there letthe store know ahead of time and your move will be done for you, BAM.
-Jason
This.
I think the biggest problem was that the campaign lacked a clear organizer to rally people and stoke interest. Someone spearheading the campaign would do two things:
1. Make sure that people know what is going on and be a source for questions. It sounds like people didn't realize that it wasn't neccessary to be there on Thursdays and that you don't need to have 2000 points. That could have been found out reading through a giant post, or it could have been found out by having someone ask 'hey, are you playing in the campaign?' and responding 'I don't know, I don't really have 2000 points of stuff' and hearing 'oh, that's totally no problem'.
2. Inspire confidence in the campaign. I know I almost didn't sign up because I've run a campaign before, and I know it takes a ton of work to make sure everything is running smoothly. And I still have no idea who was supposed to be running this. Which made me think that it would probably fall apart. If I wasn't there every Thursday night anyway, I wouldn't have made a special trip for just that reason. Knowing that someone is in charge would make me think that it is more likely to be an enjoyable experience.
All of this would have been a non-issue if I were there every Thursday. It's a shame it wasn't clear or the case without me there.
Overall it's extremely disappointing.
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Chase, I'm the first one to say we all want you there every night. I know I start getting all panicky when I haven't seen you for a few hours. But you don't have to be there on Thursdays (or whenever) to make this work. Appoint a deputy. Matt's there, and he's cool. Have Sam come in. He loves collecting data and putting it in spreadsheets. Or recruit one of the players to keep things running. This thing just needs an accessible face or two is all.
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If a campaign needs an accessible authority figure, that can be done. If a lower point default means more people are comfortable, that can be done. I'm actually encouraged by the feedback. For the problems I'm reading so far, there are solutions.
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Matt was going to run this league, but I guess people didn't know that. :(
I was planning to be there for the first night to get it going and go through everything with him. I know he read the league stuff a bunch and was ready to go.
Live and learn I guess.
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I've all ready played it a year ago. (which is like the only case for you)
I feel the plainville community is to young needs more roots. What i mean is it has a lot more younger players which is not a bad thing in fact its a really good thing more then you might understand. What I'm about to say is in NO WAY ragging on chase and if you take this the negatively please ignore it, the problem in with is see this outcome was from the wrong type of hype, and the hype that was giving might have not hit a home run with the newer players.What i mean is When i played in the League in Abington a little over a year ago there was people telling me how great it was going to be and how much fun i could have and it wasn't serious, becuase of this. This is when i really started playing 40k instead of maybe hear and there. I got to meet great people it was that plan and simple which lead to more connections and games. I know for a fact that some plainville thursday players play with their friends and really don't expand from there there are cases where i am wrong like when ben sets up games for people. Sure over time the barriers from the mini groups could slowly brake over time, But this league could really help make bg community progress faster. It really sad that it failed. I did not think it wasn't going to happen, but i had a feeling that some people might not join. what could fix it could be like what happen to me peer pressure. I mean hey i wanted to meet and play more people and this league made it happen.
I am really tired now ive been up a very long time so sorry if this doesn't make any sense.
I've never been to Plainville, so I don't know whether the following is relevant, but I have seen a clique effect in various stores. You might have hobbyists who disdain opponents who aren't completely painted. You might have tourney players proud of well optimized lists. You might have youngsters who aren't into painting, and haven't the models or knowledge to give the tourney players a decent game.
At one point I was playing in two stores who had two methods for organizing games. One store was dominated by a war gaming clique fighting a campaign where winning a game meant you get advantages when it was time to play the next game. Not to long after, the experienced players got advantages and were able to thoroughly thump the newer players. For some reason, the new players dropped out and started playing only other new players.
The other store did a pyramid scheme. No fluff. You alternated between challenging a player who has won a bit more, and getting challenged by someone who hadn't won quite so much. You ended up playing someone at about your own skill level, but part of the scheme was that players could challenge people they don't fight every week. Everyone played everyone else. There was a minor award given out if a player managed to stay at the top of the pyramid for several weeks, after which point I think he started again at the bottom.
I'm a bit paranoid about cliques. I'm more than a bit concerned about campaigns where winning one week gives one advantages next week. Pyramid challenges might be a way to encourage players from playing new people, but there isn't much fluff or strategy. Not ideal. In a way cliques can be a good thing, as players find other players with similar interests in gaming and similar skill levels. At the same time, the game isn't as much fun if one fights the same opponents every week. A healthy store is somewhere you can go and might have any number of people willing to show you a different opponent.
I've no specific advice, alas. Plainville is a bit far for me to travel.
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To blantyr's post, to the best of my knowledge, Plainville doesn't have any cliques in the negative sense of the word. Through luck and effort, we've avoided them in any bad way. I wouldn't put any of this on the Plainville community, because it really is a community.
But to the point of fairness blantyr raises, it definitely is one thing to get beat down in a 6-hour tournament and it's another thing to get beat down over 6 weeks. With our wide experience gap of "as seen in White Dwarf" to "baby seal", I can see where that may have put some people off, from either side. Admittedly, I don't know how one would tweak that aspect and am not sure if it should be tweaked at all.
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Losing is part of the game. People uncomfortable with that aren't really league folks anyway.
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Even players losing get a "way out" in the league. Each week after the first there is a special rule of some kind, either based on location that are claimed, or something else.
For instance, one might have the opportunity to breach the Vogen city walls in a different, unclaimed area on week 3 and THEN move. This would allow players getting beat on in their region of the map to relocate to a spot where they can challenge and opponent (or friend) they think they can beat.
It's a shame it didn't happen, because it really is a ton of fun.
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So let's make sure it happens next time around. Pick a date now (or soon) so that people can get armies ready. And start registering (and keep track of how many are registered on the forums) so that people know they aren't signing up for a bum league.
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I have no idea how i didnt hear about this league. I have Thursdays off and would have played. I long to play 40k again.
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So let's make sure it happens next time around. Pick a date now (or soon) so that people can get armies ready. And start registering (and keep track of how many are registered on the forums) so that people know they aren't signing up for a bum league.
It could be set up without a specific date. Rather, the campaign could simply start when a minimum number of players have registered.
With different events, upcoming holidays and the like, I imagine any campaign would have to be put off until January. And that's plenty of time to get the word out.
ETA: Changed the thread title, to be more positive!
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So let's make sure it happens next time around. Pick a date now (or soon) so that people can get armies ready. And start registering (and keep track of how many are registered on the forums) so that people know they aren't signing up for a bum league.
It could be set up without a specific date. Rather, the campaign could simply start when a minimum number of players have registered.
With different events, upcoming holidays and the like, I imagine any campaign would have to be put off until January. And that's plenty of time to get the word out.
ETA: Changed the thread title, to be more positive!
A word of advice, try to line it up to end right before the annual megabattle. People will be excited about 40k in a non-tournament way and they can build up for the megabattle at the same time.
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A word of advice, try to line it up to end right before the annual megabattle. People will be excited about 40k in a non-tournament way and they can build up for the megabattle at the same time.
That would require patience from some, but it can also get people excited about the Forge World units they could use in both events.
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My only reason for not doing it is time. I think I would have trouble committing to making there often enough. I wouldn't want to be 'that guy' who signs up and plays two weeks and then like never shows up again.
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A little too far for me to commit to every week.