Battleground Games Forum
Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: Benjamin on July 15, 2012, 09:26:49 PM
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I want to take the Chaos Daemons codex and break it down as it applies to 6th Edition. I intend for this to be an active conversation. I'm just going to throw ideas around and see what sticks, a place for ideas and theories. I hope from this perspective to also understand 6th Edition better, because for me just reading the rulebook is not going well. Maybe in all the blather you'll become a better Daemon player, or a better opponent.
The Chaos Daemons Errata/FAQ:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420308a_Chaos_Daemons_6th_Ed_V1.pdf
I'll start posting thoughts and ideas later tonight. Writing on an empty stomach is less than ideal.
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I just played a 6th edition game with my Daemons today :)
I think the biggest change for Daemon PLAYERS (though it's not specifically about the Daemon codex) is the ability to ally in Chaos Space Marines as Battle Brothers. CSM's have units that do things well that Daemons don't do so well (access to the BRB psychic powers, durable scoring units that still do something, long range firepower, STARTING ON THE BOARD). And it's very fun to think about what CSM units to take :) It's like the size of our codex doubled overnight.
Being able to take my existing Daemon Prince models and use them as CSM Princes if I want is just icing on the cake :)
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I'm still not sure where to start with the Daemon codex. 2d6 Assault range, Fear seem to help a heavily assault-based codex. Transitioning from 5th means joy as No Retreat! wounds are a thing of the past. But now there's also Overwatch...
I'll start with Troops. Generally, the stronger the Troops, the stronger the codex.
Bloodletters
Combine their power swords with Furious Charge and they still pack a decent punch against most infantry. Bloodletters are still only T4/5++ models and to be effective really need to swing at least at the same time as the enemy. This limit means enemy Terminator squads are going to need to be dealt with on different terms. I finished 5th Edition running a squad of 15 Bloodletters and they were very effective. Now I'd consider the same squad for a few other reasons: Overwatch and 5+ cover. To be survivable, squads will need to be bigger, which leads us to figuring out the break-even mark. When does it become throwing good points after bad? Bloodletter reach their limit well before 20.
(And yeah, the above paragraph got heavily edited to reflect the accuracies of the FAQ and the original inaccuracies of my recently rampant illiteracy.)
Daemonettes
Rending claws are counted as having two close-combat weapons, so the Daemonettes are looking at 4+ rending attacks per round at I5, plus offensive and defensive grenades. Sounds good enough, but... they're still only T3. I just can't stress how hard they'll die. If you're set on running them, I feel it's the age-old adage, Go Big or Go Home. It is possible for the Daemonettes to handle anything in game in assault, so maybe it's worth considering. 20 of them won't get stuck in against a Walker like the other Troops choices. But T3, in a ruleset that encourages the dakka, I just can't be seduced.
Plaguebearers
Between cover-nerf and Feel No Pain "adjustment", these jolly fellows didn't make the transition to 6th so well. They're still rockin' Poisoned weapons, which work just as well as before. And they're still T5, making them the most durable scoring unit. Maybe you take some for your backfield objectives, which leaves Plaguebearers the same function as they had in the previous edition. Sit on objectives, stay out of trouble and don't die. Exciting, yes?
Pink Horrors
They shoot, which is a novelty among Daemon troops. BS 3 is not much to work with, and with low expectations like that, you could feel comfortable taking the long shot at Flyers with Bolts of Tzeentch. Pink Horrors are the only Troop choice for which I'd consider taking only 5 models. And sometimes, that 4++ save will really surprise you!
Nurglings
It is the fool who underestimates the Nurglings. They are the clear winners of Daemon troops for 6th Edition. Their role is still the same as the perfect counter-Death Star unit, a big pile of cheap Wounds that will take a beating for rounds and rounds while the rest of your army handles what's left of your opponents. Point Nurglings at your problem and ignore it! Big baddies like Mephiston spend turns squishing tiny poopsmiths. You can hide these little buggers very easily too! If you're running a Nurgle/Epidemius list, this should be a no-brainer. Imagine the wild possibilities with a fully-charged Tally!
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Bloodletters
An interesting thing happened to Bloodletters on the way to 6th Edition, and this may not last through the next Errata. Hellblades are Power Weapons, which technically now opens Bloodletters up to taking swords, axes, mauls and lances.
I feel a little churlish pointing this out after the whoe power weapon DCA debate, but the FAQ specifically lists Hellblades as Power Swords, meaning they cannot be switched out for axes et al. They are the only weapon I know of to be specifically limited in this fashion.
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Hey Ben, I think as far as daemon troops go Bloodletters and Daemonettes are still great choices. I know daemonettes are T3, but they are still very useful and can be very effective if played in synch with the rest if the army. The whole army causes fear now so that's pretty cool too.
Hellblades are now "powerswords", but I don't think the new 6th ed power sword changes are as bad as some people make out. AP2 in assault is overrated anyway because it means the wielder is most likely striking last. I would rather kill terminators with a high volume of AP5 hits then a few AP2 hits any day. Also how many terminators do people field? 5 on average in my experience, not much. Plus if you really want to you can always field your own allied chaos terminators.
Plaugebearers took a big hit because they can't go to ground(fearless) and can't run(SnP) anymore. FnP is 5+ now.
Assault in the meta actually got a bit better, because on average a player will roll 7+ on 2D6, with the potential for a 12 inch assault.. not to shabby if you ask me. Daemonettes can reroll their assault charge due to fleet.
Soulgrinders will now get glanced to death, but Flying monstrous creatures are sooo badass. I would suggest you read the rules for them and grab some.
As previously mentioned, allies have greatly enhanced a lot of army's unit selection and flexibility, and now daemons can benefit from chaos marine allies. The cool thing about chaos marines is that you can field them in blobs of 20 if you really want to lock down and camp an objective.
Honestly, Chaos Daemons and Chaos Marines have such good troop choices that I would just flood the board with bloodletters/daemonettes/chaos marines. Don't forget to include flying monsters lol
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You guys are both accurate and I edited my previous post to reflect that, yes, Hellblades are specifically Power Swords. For a moment, I admit I was too excited at the possibilities of having an interesting Troops choice. Different weapons would have been really fun.
Mike, as you rightly point out, being Fearless and no longer being able to go to ground, it has not only hurt Plaguebearers, but every Troops choice.
I wanted to figure out the math on average assault distances in 5th and 6th. In 5th, the average movement+assault range of a Fleet infantry model was 15.5". Now in 6th, it gets tricky to do the math. The threat range for Fleet models is between 8-18" inches. Simply, with two dice on the assault distance, I could expect one above 3 (avg. 5) and one below 3 (avg 2). Reroll the one below 3 for a single-die average of 3.5, for a total of 8.5, giving us a grand threat range of 14.5". If someone has actual math, instead of conceptual gut math, I'd like to see if it's different. (It probably is. :P )
Nerfing multi-assaults has hurt Assault greatly. This is a reason why 20 Bloodletters or 20 Daemonettes aren't as attractive as a choice, because I'm still comparing them to 5th... which is really a mistake. For some reason, my brain is being very stubborn.
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I just figured out how to do the math for 2d6 re-roll average. On the table of all 36 possible 2d6 combinations, replace any result of 3 or less with the expected average 3.5... That gives us... a problem I can't solve in the 8 minutes before I need to leave for work. Laaaame.
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8.5" That's the average on 2d6, rerolling 1-3. But it's a little better than that, because if you needed 10", but got 9", you'll still reroll.
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Bam! http://natfka.blogspot.com/2012/07/new-chaos-rumors-are-here.html?m=1
2 words.... chaos dragon
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Waiting for a pic, but it sounds awesome. Something like that could make me do some weird chaos/ GK allaince....... :P
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Ummm yeah I am praying that this dragon is an Elite or a Fast... So I don't waste the Obliterators I just bought for my CSM ally group.
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Interesting Daemon tid-bit:
The Soul Gridner has been moved to the ATO side of GW (special order only). When I tried to restock this I was told, "read into this however you'd like."
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ATO?
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Those rumors are definitely cool, and makes me wish my dice weren't cursed around CSM. And as Allies, it sounds like Daemons are going to have some fun new friends to play with.
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ATO?
ATO stands for "Available to Order (but not put on your shelf)."
All of the ATO items are special order only and take 7-14 days to ship. Think Broadsides or a pack of Boneswords.
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I still think bloodletters and daemonettes are solid choices. I consider bloodletters the hammer and daemonettes the swiss army knife. The key is safely delivering them into combat so they can do their job. This can be done be either 1) outnumbering the enemy or 2) forcing the enemy to shoot at something else
Also I don't think going to ground is a problem because:
1) daemons are an assault army, and assault units are not designed to sit in buildings going in and out of ground all game long (that job is for shooty/snipey units)
2) daemons already have an armywide 5+ inv save
If you don't want to take Chaos Marine allies then cultist themed Guard would also make a good ally. With guard you can get access to all their heavy weapons and the holy(or unholy) hydra battery to shoot down enemy fliers.
I think if you try a few combos of tactics then I'm sure you will find a playstyle that you like. Good luck
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The Soul Grinder
I hate to say that one of my personally favorite units has suddenly become a liability. Because of the rise of Necrons, many lists should have plenty of shooting capacity to handle AV 13.
Armor ain't what it used to be and Walkers in general got only upgrade of note. The Soul Grinder as a Walker can fire Overwatch, which is cool if anyone forgets how to play Warhammer and charges into the Soul Grinder. (Opponents have tried this before, so I'm not just being snide.) The Grinder can fire the 6 bolter shots from the Harvester and then roll d3 hits for the Str 6 Vomit template no one ever used in 5th. It's strange to me, but there you go.
So if you've gleaned from that Soul Grinders are decent in assault, well, they are. Even against Power Fists and Thunder Hammers, it's still a 5 to glance... except those glances now take away precious Hull Points. Most regular, poorly equipped infantry cannot do a thing in combat against AV 13. Soul Grinders will just win out, given enough time.
Ignoring Shaken/Stunned results as a Daemonic vehicle is far less impressive than it once was. Most things hitting AV 13 have either AP 1 or 2, and the newly revised Vehicle Damage chart makes sure it'll be darn unlikely you'll be stunned and almost impossible to be shaken.
If you insist on a Soul Grinder, then Phlegm is still a must. Phlegm, like all Blasts, should be a better deal now that half-strength vs vehicles is a thing of the past.
And the Soul Grinder does bear a significant resemblance to the Chaos Space Marine Defiler. The difference between the two is really the range of the Battlecannon blast and the AV. The Grinder with a 36" range is intended soon to be in your opponent's face, smashing it. The Defiler, a bit more fragile at AV 12, has a range of 72". It's best shooting away all game, plus you can add more guns on top of more guns.
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This thread is too serious, didn't read.
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I have many projects on my plate. So I'm glad other players are coming up with fun Daemon list ideas.
http://thebrownpaintbrush.blogspot.com/2012/07/demon-bomb-takes-rtt.html
Do you know what grots are good for? I can tally the reasons. :D
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Looks like I might need to get a bunch of those new Plague Bearer boxes.
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Do you know what grots are good for? I can tally the reasons. :D
Grotz, dey be shoota. And they is nice to give a good kick to when somefing needs kicked.
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Did anyone see this? It looks like Daemons are getting a WD patch update.. looks really cool. http://daemons40k.blogspot.com/2012/07/a-look-at-changes-to-daemons-units-in.html?m=1