Battleground Games Forum
Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: PhoenixFire on July 16, 2012, 05:45:58 PM
-
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2012/07/faeit-212-exclusive-40k-design-studio.html?m=1
A lot of enlighting info in here about their thinking behind certain changes, talk of an FAQ in august, flakk missles and spreading out releases over 4 years
-
I want to put this on our front page. Does anyone know if I'm allowed to blatantly rip this off if I give credit to the source?
-
E-mail the guy and ask.
his email is in his profile http://www.blogger.com/profile/06232116705442743839 (http://www.blogger.com/profile/06232116705442743839).
MarkG
-
I kind of hope that Q&A isn't real.
Example, associative vs disassociative as intended to create realism. Realism, in a game set 40,000 years in the future, in which by scale pistols can only fire about 80 feet. Sure! "Associative" sounds like a cheap buzzword picked up in a 45-minute motivational meeting, in which "synergy" and "thinking outside the box" created a "market strategy".
The addition of Hull Points is therefore used to make vehicles more inclusive during a game and give them a continued presence even after having taken a few direct hits. Jervis said that it flattened out the extremes. Vehicles used to get obliterated in turn one or take damage that would render them ineffective for a turn or two which really didn’t flow too well. Hull Points therefore allow players to enjoy the attributes of their expensive vehicles without them vanishing off the table having done virtually nothing.
Except that's not true. Vehicles are so much easier to kill now and its very much still possible to blow up vehicles with a well-placed shot. With a string of poorly rolled dice, it was possible in 5e to never kill a vehicle after scoring 100 penetrating hits. Now, the kill is guaranteed in just 4 or fewer glances. And they were clearly very concerned about not killing Flyers at all.
Random charge distances add more drama and tension. Oh, those are two words I want in my fun! Hell, I feel like their application of random is done all backwards. Instead of random psyker powers, how about random effects for Perils of the Warp? Not a difficult thing to "associate"!
Anyway, I should probably get a blog for this type of bitching.
-
I kind of hope that Q&A isn't real.
Example, associative vs disassociative as intended to create realism. Realism, in a game set 40,000 years in the future, in which by scale pistols can only fire about 80 feet. Sure! "Associative" sounds like a cheap buzzword picked up in a 45-minute motivational meeting, in which "synergy" and "thinking outside the box" created a "market strategy".
The addition of Hull Points is therefore used to make vehicles more inclusive during a game and give them a continued presence even after having taken a few direct hits. Jervis said that it flattened out the extremes. Vehicles used to get obliterated in turn one or take damage that would render them ineffective for a turn or two which really didn’t flow too well. Hull Points therefore allow players to enjoy the attributes of their expensive vehicles without them vanishing off the table having done virtually nothing.
Except that's not true. Vehicles are so much easier to kill now and its very much still possible to blow up vehicles with a well-placed shot. With a string of poorly rolled dice, it was possible in 5e to never kill a vehicle after scoring 100 penetrating hits. Now, the kill is guaranteed in just 4 or fewer glances. And they were clearly very concerned about not killing Flyers at all.
Random charge distances add more drama and tension. Oh, those are two words I want in my fun! Hell, I feel like their application of random is done all backwards. Instead of random psyker powers, how about random effects for Perils of the Warp? Not a difficult thing to "associate"!
Anyway, I should probably get a blog for this type of bitching.
Actually, when it comes to vehicles, I kind of like that change -- I did feel that vehicles were a bit too impervious to anything short of a point blank meltagun. I agree with you on the random psyker powers, it doesn't make much sense to me that a trained librarian/psyker/grandmaster all of a sudden forgets which powers he knows...
-
Awesome interviews, and another FAQ before summer's end! Sweet
-
Actually, when it comes to vehicles, I kind of like that change -- I did feel that vehicles were a bit too impervious to anything short of a point blank meltagun.
But the article says Hull Points were implemented supposedly to make vehicles even more durable. My "Welcome to 6th Edition" moment was charging a Land Raider with Thunder Hammers and a few glances later, 240+ points sat there in a wreck. My opponent was not amused.
-
Dude, this is marketing. It's like when you see a battle report in White Dwarf, and it is something that no one would ever, ever play.
-
That doesn't mean it isn't what they really believe....
-
Also good to know that more Flakk missle options will be on the way, I guess they held off in order to sell as many fliers as possible. Hopefully soon as I don't really feel like building/painting an entire fleet of aircraft anytime soon ;)
-
Actually, when it comes to vehicles, I kind of like that change -- I did feel that vehicles were a bit too impervious to anything short of a point blank meltagun.
But the article says Hull Points were implemented supposedly to make vehicles even more durable. My "Welcome to 6th Edition" moment was charging a Land Raider with Thunder Hammers and a few glances later, 240+ points sat there in a wreck. My opponent was not amused.
The way I read it, giving vehicles hull points was so they could take a glance or two and not be useless for half the game.
Sure, your opponent didn't like it when you glanced his Landraider to death, but it also kind of sucked in 5th edition when my Demolisher was kept from firing for 3/5 of the game because my opponent would keep on shooting it until it was shaken, and then ignore it for the rest of the round.
-
Also in 4th ed vehicles were mobile death traps that exploded very easily because even one glance could cause explosions. There were 2 damage charts too, one for glancing and one for penetrating. I played a lot of tournaments in 4th and vehicles were actually rare in those days. Then everyone obviously saw the huge durability and meta surge with them in 5th. Now, I don't think its about making vehicles stronger or weaker, as it is more about overall balance. Now a vehicle can take a glance or two and still be fully functional, but you still won't need to take a million meltas just to be competitive. That's a huge improvement in my opinion, and despite the doomsday people, the game actually does get better with each new edition.
I can't wait to play with 6th ;D
-
The way I read it, giving vehicles hull points was so they could take a glance or two and not be useless for half the game.
If they got rid of the temporary conditions like Shaken and Stunned, we'd be much closer to what you're talking about.
The damage from glances is now permanent, which is a step closer to permanent uselessness.
Now, I don't think its about making vehicles stronger or weaker...
Except in the quote I posted, they want expensive vehicles to stay on the table longer. But it is now possible for armies who could barely damage Land Raiders before to now kill them in one turn. Assaulting vehicles too has become very, very much easier, now that they have a WS based on speed.
I just can't tell if they believe themselves or are trying to sell something they don't believe.
-
Except in the quote I posted, they want expensive vehicles to stay on the table longer. But it is now possible for armies who could barely damage Land Raiders before to now kill them in one turn. Assaulting vehicles too has become very, very much easier, now that they have a WS based on speed.
I just can't tell if they believe themselves or are trying to sell something they don't believe.
For Orks, this is good. Unless you brought Dethrolla BWs you couldn't reliably damage AV14. i think they went a little too far with Hull points. They could have just ginned up some Orky Melta style weapons (and stuff for the other xenos that couldn't handle high av stuff) and called it a day. If everyone had access to melta/lance weapons I don't think 5th edition vehicles would be such a problem.
-
The problem for most people (maybe not orks) was that a LR could go away in one hit from a melta (and meltas were everywhere) but you could be shooting at a Rhino all day and have nothing happen.
So in 6th they succeeded in making rhinos more delicate, but also made LRs more delicate, not tougher.
Personally, I think the main problem was that rhinos were 35 pts. Maybe they should have started with that.
-
Personally, I think the main problem was that rhinos were 35 pts. Maybe they should have started with that.
More or fewer points?
-
10 pts. They should be 10 pts.
No seriously, rhinos used to be like what, 50, 55? I forget but it was around there. (BT codex has it 50, and 70 for the razorback. That's probably what it was) Then, as I recall, 5th edition and the new SM codex came out within a couple months of each other.
For those who don't remember, in 4th, vehicles were a deathtrap, and 5th was a bit of a reaction to that. But at basically the exact same time they reduced the cost by 15 pts. 2 fixes to one problem. And it took a few months, but once it sunk in, yeah, rhinos and razorback were everywhere. Really, the whole game of 40k revolved around killing AV11.
IG codex came around a few years later with 55 pt chimeras. AV12 front, and when you have them 10 abreast, no one cares about the side armor.
And kinda like Flyers, there was a strong suspicion it was done to sell models. I think most Marine players probably had like 2-4 rhinos total. Y'know, about enough to move a few tac squads around, that's about it. Jump packs were common. Later (and it took a while to build) you'd see things like 6-9 razorback lists. So that's something like $200 in little plastic boxes (and personally, I think one of the most boring models in 40k).
-
10 pts. They should be 10 pts.
No seriously, rhinos used to be like what, 50, 55? I forget but it was around there. (BT codex has it 50, and 70 for the razorback. That's probably what it was) Then, as I recall, 5th edition and the new SM codex came out within a couple months of each other.
For those who don't remember, in 4th, vehicles were a deathtrap, and 5th was a bit of a reaction to that. But at basically the exact same time they reduced the cost by 15 pts. 2 fixes to one problem. And it took a few months, but once it sunk in, yeah, rhinos and razorback were everywhere. Really, the whole game of 40k revolved around killing AV11.
IG codex came around a few years later with 55 pt chimeras. AV12 front, and when you have them 10 abreast, no one cares about the side armor.
And kinda like Flyers, there was a strong suspicion it was done to sell models. I think most Marine players probably had like 2-4 rhinos total. Y'know, about enough to move a few tac squads around, that's about it. Jump packs were common. Later (and it took a while to build) you'd see things like 6-9 razorback lists. So that's something like $200 in little plastic boxes (and personally, I think one of the most boring models in 40k).
your also forgetting the fact that when the lowered the cost of the rhino, they increased the cost of a 10 man tac squad by 30 points. Space marines are fluff suppose to me a rapid Elite strike force when deployed.
As for razor backs, they dont carry alot of troops and cost alot of points for good weapons, so that also is balanced for there cost