Battleground Games Forum
Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: MM3791 on September 11, 2012, 11:26:23 PM
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Are we going to start allowing IA/Forgeworld units in regular tournaments? It seems like a lot more fliers, tanks, and infantry would be available to add more flavor and balance to certain armies and it would also boost Battleground sales. Also the developers look down on people that disallow IA units ;P see link
http://collegiatitanica.blogspot.com.au/2012/09/games-day-australia-2012.html
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I strongly wish that FW units were allowed in BG tourneys.
Frontline Gaming (major tournament organizer in California) are allowing FW in all of their tourneys now, including the next Bay Area Open.
And! Game On, major gaming store in Rhode Island, is allowing it for the next tourney, hehe.
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Agreed, as of now my Eldar have to wait until the next codex until I get flyers, but with Forgeworld I can immediately get access to at least 2 different fighter fliers and one bomber. This doesn't include more tanks and infantry. The same holds true for other codexes too.
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Most of BG tournaments this year have been for the Qualifier and has excluded FW. This is something that I may see being a disagreement since we moved into 6th but keeping stuff consistent I think would be the best.
Don't get me wrong some of the Forgeworld stuff I would love to mess around with. Predator Infernus and Storm Eagle for Salamanders but it costs tons of money which isn't available to all players.
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They make a point, if you bring in lets say Necron Pylons, the tau Manta carrier, the Imperical gaurd titans, and the orks gagantuian squagoth, THIS WILL BE INTERESTING!
I want, to see, a battle of this porportions, in a tournament, and now that i think about it, what if we did a massive game? Apocalipse Forge world systle?
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Are we going to start allowing IA/Forgeworld units in regular tournaments? It seems like a lot more fliers, tanks, and infantry would be available to add more flavor and balance to certain armies and it would also boost Battleground sales. Also the developers look down on people that disallow IA units ;P see link
http://collegiatitanica.blogspot.com.au/2012/09/games-day-australia-2012.html
We can take this point by point.
BG Plainville has allowed FW units for certain events. (FW models are almost always allowed where appropriate.) The last Trios tournament allowed certain FW units, from IA2 I believe. But why not for more "competitive" events?
Flavor, sure. I'm on board with flavor.
Balance, almost certainly not. For every super cool thing your old codex gets, a newer codex is also getting a super cool thing. The codices are still going to have inherent imbalances. That logic also doesn't account for the units themselves being "experimental" and potentially game-unbalancing.
Battleground does not sell Forgeworld models, so I just don't see how BG sales would be boosted. Because people are overpaying for Forgeworld resin, suddenly they'll come up with more money to spend on their army at BG?
The developers also look down on competitive Warhammer. So there's that.
Also, if tournaments allowed FW models, Sam would have to know FW rules.
I'd find a way to bring Aetaos'rau'keres and you have to ask yourself if it was worth it. :P
Oops, now I might be late for work!
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BG Plainville has allowed FW for certain events. The last Trios tournament allowed certain FW models, from IA2 I believe. But why not for more "competitive" events?
Flavor, sure. I'm on board with flavor.
Balance, almost certainly not. For every super cool thing your old codex gets, a newer codex is also getting a super cool thing. The codices are still going to have inherent imbalances. That logic also doesn't account for the units themselves being "experimental" and potentially game-unbalancing.
CSM have no ranged AA outside of the quad gun scenery or allies. Hellblades and Helltalons are not game breaking and well, are not good when compared to Storm ravens and Vendettas. I've pretty much stayed away from the tournament scene for a long time now and it happens to coincide with the age of my codex and the level of competition. I'm all up for a good fight but not to be puppy stomped. Throw in a plague hulk and a blight drone and suddenly I can hang a lot more now that I have some AA and a walker than can show it's face outside of a building.
Battleground does not sell Forgeworld models, so I just don't see how BG sales would be boosted. Because people are overpaying for Forgeworld resin, suddenly they'll come up with more money to spend on their army at BG?
Ok, good point.
The developers also look down on competitive Warhammer. So there's that.
So does GW.
Also, if tournaments allowed FW models, Sam would have to know FW rules.
Sam likes to read.
I'd find a way to bring Aetaos'rau'keres and you have to ask yourself if it was worth it. :P
I'll bring An'ggrath. BRING IT ON!
Oops, now I might be late for work!
Fair, me too.
EDIT:
The best argument I have heard from the anti forgeworld at tournaments crowd is this: A lack of accessibility to some players as mentioned in this thread and hinted at by you.
At the same time, the argument loses steam and I would like to point you to the Vendetta (FW only) and Hydra (FW only). Also, one could argue the Chaos Dreadnoughts are also inaccessible to non-FW players. So unless you are "modelling to advantage" by just being a good enough converter to build the previous, you had to tap FW for the models / parts.
Maybe there should just be the same rule as Privateer Press where as if the official model isn't officially released, it cannot be used.
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My opinion is approved for 40k FW models would be workable however it comes with a few hurdles that make it very difficult.
1. Availability of the rules, BG cant buy the books unless they go through FW and they are expensive as all hell
2. Communities willingness to learn a new set of rules that come with FW
3. BG has one of the bigger Competative communities with multiple people attending nationwide GTs as well as travelers that travel well over 2-3 hours to play with us. FW isnt allowed at these major events so it makes sense that at the more competative events BG follows suit.
BG in the past has allowed FW and I dont see that changing but I also dont think it is appropriate for every tourny he runs. What I would like to see however for the tournies that they do allow FW to allow all Approved 40k models. This would add a wider variety to those events. And allow people to play with the full range of NON Super Heavy FW models.
Keeping the events seperated is a good call not only for BG but also for the community. As BG is made up of several factions BG is put into a situation where it has to appease as many people as it can and not alienate anyone in the process. So far i believe they have done a very good job and as 6th shapes up I am sure we will see a more balanced approach to balancing those different factions.
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1. Availability of the rules & cost : I don't think the vast majority of the people that play in BG tourneys own EVERY regular codex. People tend to buy only the codexes they are interested in playing, and the learn the rules of other armies by other means (playing against them, borrowing a friend's book, or the internet). I don't see how this is fundamentally different from FW models - buy the books that have rules for models you want to use, and just kind of absorb the other rules in the same way you absorb rules for other armies now.
2. Yeah, if the community doesn't get behind it, it won't happen. But that's what this thread is :) Let's try to get more people behind it :)
3. Actually, ForgeWorld IS starting to be allowed at large GT's. As I mentioned, Frontline gaming is allowing it... they run several GT's in California and are talking about throwing a huge one in Vegas.
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Some of the IA stuff is really well costed and fits in on the power scale, but some IA is stuff is ridiculously powerful for the cost...and from what I have seen, the stuff on that end of the power scale is on the imperial side much of the time. Maybe it is something to look at on a unit by unit basis.
Personally, I loved IA8 since it filled many of the holes in the Ork Codex without going overboard (in my opinion).
As for the cost, scratch building the stuff can take care of that. Of course, Orks make it easy.
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Mad Dok, what do you feel is ridiculously undercosted? IMHO, with the advent of Hull Points, it's tough for any vehicle to dominate anymore - and most of the FW imperial stuff is large tanks. The Land Raider achilles is actually pretty terrible now for its cost.
I guess if we saw an AV14 flyer, THAT could still prove problematic and hard to kill like ... but there isn't one.
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FW has always done the rule of cool and been higher cost than normal. Way more than normal.
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I tend to think Forgeworld 40k approved models/rules are fine. There may be a few select items that are "undercosted", but overall that is no different than regular GW books.
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1. Availability of the rules & cost : I don't think the vast majority of the people that play in BG tourneys own EVERY regular codex. People tend to buy only the codexes they are interested in playing, and the learn the rules of other armies by other means (playing against them, borrowing a friend's book, or the internet). I don't see how this is fundamentally different from FW models - buy the books that have rules for models you want to use, and just kind of absorb the other rules in the same way you absorb rules for other armies now.
2. Yeah, if the community doesn't get behind it, it won't happen. But that's what this thread is :) Let's try to get more people behind it :)
3. Actually, ForgeWorld IS starting to be allowed at large GT's. As I mentioned, Frontline gaming is allowing it... they run several GT's in California and are talking about throwing a huge one in Vegas.
This is my point to a degree.
1. I agree 100% its not easy to absorb the rules when they are presented to you. However I feel cost should never play a factor in deciding if rules are legal.
2. I think you missed my point here what I was saying is that the BG sommunity is split to a degree there are those that love FW and there are those (Competative GT players) that do not simply for the reason that MOST major GT's dont use FW. To be fair with BG has to do they will need to tailor there tournies and do some with FW and some without. As I stated in 6th I am sure we will see this deveLoping more and more as the new edition playes out.
3. One or 2 tournies does make a pattern and WEST coast is VERY different then EAST coast.
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The GT aspect is something I haven't fully considered but it makes sense given Chase's drive to make BG able to host a GT.
So I will pray to the dark gods that the GTs start to adopt FW more widespread then.
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It's also sort of a "momentum" or chicken-and-egg thing. GT's tend to want to set up rules that reflect the way that most people play locally. And locally GT attenders tend to want to practice for GT's. Somebody has to set the trend with format changes. Let's be on the cutting edge!
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Most Forgeworld units are slightly under-powered. Almost every Land Raider variant is broken as crap, though.
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With hull points and the way tanks work now I still dont see an issue with a 300 pt landraider. Overall trand setting I dont see happening. Will BG incluse FW in touries yes.. But it be in ALL tournies no... Should that be the way it works.. Most definitely
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Yeah there is an upper limit to how good a 300 pt vehicle with av14 and 4 hull points can be... and I think that upper limit is "not very good". With the "glance to kill" rule and the "always getting hit on a 3+ in CC" rule, there are umpteen things (newly in 6th) that can easilty take out such a vehicle quickly... any dreadnought, any monstrous creature, a unit of 4 scarabs, anything with haywire, etc etc.
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Wow my typing sucks today... What is the difference between IA and FW btw?
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Wow my typing sucks today... What is the difference between IA and FW btw?
Good question, as a lot of people seem confused. Forge World is the subsidiary company of Games Workshop.. IA is the series of rules supplements(books) to the Warhammer 40,000 table-top game that Forgeworld creates.
When I say allow IA, I did not mean Apocolyse units like Titans and such, just the regular stuff like aircraft, tanks, and infantry. For example, my Eldar would creatly benefit from such units as the Firestorm tank(AA tank that shoots down fliers), Shadow Spectre Aspect Warriors, Corsairs(which die just as badly as Guardians expect they have better weapons and mobility), as well as a whole slew of aircraft that the current Eldar codex desperately lacks. "The Trooper" made a similar comparasion with his Chaos Marine units in his first post.
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Ok fine cause I can't afford the book because I am poor and I dont see an updated 6th edition datasheet on Forgeworld what are the Stats/Abilities for say the Firestorm Tank?
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it gets 6 twin-linked str 6 shots, with skyfire and interceptor. Kinda underwhelming against a Vendetta or a StormRaven now that I look at it.
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How many Points and whats its BS and the AP on the gun?
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This is the lastest IA book they are pushing "Autonautica", featuring fully updated 6th Edition rules for 34 flyers and 13 anti-aircraft units fielded by the Imperial Navy, Space Marines, Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, Tau Empire, Necrons, Dark Eldar and Chaos.
Full description in link below.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/IMPERIAL_ARMOUR_AERONAUTICA.html
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With hull points and the way tanks work now I still dont see an issue with a 300 pt landraider. Overall trand setting I dont see happening. Will BG incluse FW in touries yes.. But it be in ALL tournies no... Should that be the way it works.. Most definitely
I wouldn't weep for the LR, I think they'll do ok overall, AV 14 is still hard to even glance.
I'm too lazy to check, but I know they gave one of their LRs five hull points. I think, (assume) it was the one that only held 6 models but was basically indestructible, immune to melta, -1 on the chart, blah blah. Put a techmarine in it if you want to be extra stupid.
And there's one that has like 4 TL lascannons? (or 2 Heavy 2 lascannons, same diff)
One of them holds like 20, 25 models, I think. I remember it was enough for 10 termies + ICs. Deathstars took some hits, but c'mon.
People underestimate LRs, but I could do ridiculous things with any of those.
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And I could do rediculous things with str 10 barage weapons but that doesnt make them over powered does it?
Its still AV 14 MANY things have an answer for that.
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Yeah, things can have a counter, and still be overpowered, right?
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Not when the points for them is rediculous. Its alot of points to get any of those. I dont see any of them being unbalanced.
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Eldar Shadow Spectres are armed with prism rifles, maybe we can test them on your super Landraider lol
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Not when the points for them is rediculous. Its alot of points to get any of those. I dont see any of them being unbalanced.
Grey Knights can't get them so they are OP.
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Not sure I understand the reference Rich.
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Someone should coin a rule for "GK, pssshaaah" same as the "Nazi rule" exists for political threads.
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Mad Dok, what do you feel is ridiculously undercosted? IMHO, with the advent of Hull Points, it's tough for any vehicle to dominate anymore - and most of the FW imperial stuff is large tanks. The Land Raider achilles is actually pretty terrible now for its cost.
I think a lot of the land raiders are undercosted for what you get. AV14 is still pretty tough for Orks (well, an IA8 SupaKannon does help). Actually there are a lot really really really cheap anti air in IA Aeronautica.
Not everything is overcosted from FW. Actually, most of the stuff isn't worth the points. Take Grot tanks. They cost waaaay more than they are worth...but the Models are so cool. I like running them, but if I was trying to win a tourney, I wouldn't be bringing them.
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I do not think it is the big expensive land raider that will change tournaments; but the small things, like IG being able to upgrade the multi-laser on a chimera to an auto-cannon for 5 points.
The other part of forge world that will change tournaments would be the alternative army lists; and new chapter specific rules for marines. You can field almost any type of marine army now you want; you may have to "count as" Death Wing for your all terminator army, but you can field almost any type of list you want between all the different Marine codices. I also think things like the Imperial Guard armored division is not something that should see play in any tournament ever.
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I actually probably have a better perspective than most, because I play against a Land Raider Achilles (the big tough one -1 to the chart) all the time. My buddy owns one and plays it at every available opportunity. As of last week he has finally given up on it in 6th. It's just way too easy to kill now, given that it costs almost as much as 3 squads of long fangs. The problem is that once you get up around the 300 pt barrier, you're going to be a prime target, and unless your durability is extreme (e.g. Fateweaver), it almost doesn't matter what kind of guns you tape onto this single target, it's going to be dead in 1 or 2 turns and the investment will be lost.
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Not everything is overcosted from FW. Actually, most of the stuff isn't worth the points. Take Grot tanks. They cost waaaay more than they are worth...but the Models are so cool. I like running them, but if I was trying to win a tourney, I wouldn't be bringing them.
Yes, I have often wanted to start an Ork army JUST to play the grot tanks. They are totally awesome. But.... knowing I could never play them in a tournament (even on a lark) is an effective discouragement.
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Into the foreseeable future Battleground has no plans to allow FW rules / units in our Singles events like the one coming up on October 13th.
Into the foreseeable future Battleground has no plans to allow all of the FW rules / units in our Doubles or Trios events.
There have been several good points presented in this thread for why we do not, should not, and almost certainly will not open up our all of our events to all of the FW rules / models.
I won't get into the details (some of which have been mentioned), but currently I believe it is not in the best interest of Battleground to fully support FW in any of our events, outside of the Megabattle.
It is important to note that 6th edition is in its infancy. Players that are interested in fielding FW units in our tournaments should look to Doubles events next year and other, different, experimental events in 2013 as well.
In the interest of appealing to the community and hobbyists, I think it's probably a pretty good time to mention Thursday 40k in Plainville. Players can absolutely bring and field their FW lists and models on Thursdays (or pretty much any other time). I think that there are plenty of players that would enjoy seeing the FW stuff in action there.
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I should clarify one thing. My concern with FW units in tournaments is only from a competitive stand-point. When it comes to running an event, simple is often better. Whenever there is doubt, there is no doubt.
I do like this discussion, though. This thread blew up while I was at work.
As Chase says, players should feel free to bring FW stuff to Thursday 40k. Some of the guys are starting to dabble for the first time. The Plainville community is still quite new overall, really just two years old. As a community, we're still pooping our pants.
Yes, I said that. I think it's funny.
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the firestorm is a 6 6 heavy 6 bs 3 i think for 180 points. the prism guns on the shadow specters isn't that great in order to be effective the squad needs to combine their shoot and only fire once.
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there is only a few reasons i havent gotten FW, 1: Normal tournaments and my league dont allow it (i'm not sure about escalation so dont hold me on my word there) 2: My income is gone temperlaraly
3: Mostly the only good necron units are the NECRON CANOPTEK ACANTHRITES and NECRON TOMB STALKER. and finally 4: Sam seemed a LITTLE angry if he had to read the books for FW when i thought of maybe a planet strike and forge world tournament.
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No ForgeWorld also means no this.
http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2012/09/14/40k-awesome-get-juiced-horus-heresy-inbound/
:(
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Most of those guys are just Heresy Era Marines, right? They look cool, nothign stopping you from using them as whatever marines you want.
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But not as their intended legion.
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Their intended legion has more spikes and tentacles now.
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Thankfully it sounds like GW is moving away from spikey means chaos.
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Battleground does not sell Forgeworld models, so I just don't see how BG sales would be boosted. Because people are overpaying for Forgeworld resin, suddenly they'll come up with more money to spend on their army at BG?
I'm pretty sure if this was fixed and independant retailers could sell FW and make a profit then this whole debate would go away.
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Battleground does not sell Forgeworld models, so I just don't see how BG sales would be boosted. Because people are overpaying for Forgeworld resin, suddenly they'll come up with more money to spend on their army at BG?
I'm pretty sure if this was fixed and independant retailers could sell FW and make a profit then this whole debate would go away.
Yup.
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I would happily make my FW purchases through BG if they started allowing them in tournies again. I have no problem supporting the store to be able to play some of the weirder stuff FW makes.
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I would happily make my FW purchases through BG if they started allowing them in tournies again. I have no problem supporting the store to be able to play some of the weirder stuff FW makes.
The problem is that even doing so doesn't "support" the store as BG makes no money off the order, whether you pay BG or FW for it.
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I would happily make my FW purchases through BG if they started allowing them in tournies again. I have no problem supporting the store to be able to play some of the weirder stuff FW makes.
The problem is that even doing so doesn't "support" the store as BG makes no money off the order, whether you pay BG or FW for it.
Yup.
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I read a rumor a while back that ForgeWorld was going to open up a new distribution center in North America, or something, and would start retailing through all types of stores.... anybody heard anything about that?
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I haven't heard anything about that since people were talking about it a couple months ago.
It would be nice, but I don't have my hopes up.
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Sorry to keep resurrecting this, I'm not expecting anyone to change their minds necessarily, but this article was published today and is very topical. The TO for the 40k tournament at Comikaze describes what it was like to have allowed FW.
http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2012/09/19/forgeworld-at-comikaze/
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I agree with most all of that. I think it CAN work fine in a GT setting.
With that said, I am not planning to allow FW rules and units in any Singles events we have in the foreseeable future and when we run a GT we won't be allowing it the main event either.
Like I said before, I won't get into details but I just do not believe it is in the best interest of Battleground to do so. Several of the reasons have been touched on in this thread and I am all for the community discussing the pros, cons, ins, outs, and anything else they'd like about it.
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... and when we run a GT...
Well, you said it. Now it has to happen.
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It will.