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Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: Chase on February 25, 2013, 11:21:59 PM

Title: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on February 25, 2013, 11:21:59 PM
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Battleground Games & Hobbies - Plainville MA



Format: Singles (1v1) 1850 points per person
Date: March 30th, 2013 a Saturday
Time: Please be here no later than 9:15am.  Set up at 9:45am.  Dice roll no later than 10:00am.
Entrance Fee:  $20.00

Please note the earlier start time.


Address:
25 Taunton Street
Plainville MA 02762
508.316.1195

Find us on Google Maps (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Battleground+Games+%26+Hobbies,+25+Taunton+Street,+Plainville,+Massachusetts&hl=en&sll=42.036922,-71.683501&sspn=2.753753,6.696167&oq=battleground+games&hq=Battleground+Games+%26+Hobbies,&hnear=25+Taunton+St,+Plainville,+Norfolk,+Massachusetts+02762&t=m&z=16&iwloc=A)

Check out our Facebook Page (http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Abington-MA/Battleground-Games-Hobbies/68808440618)



This event will be capped at 32 players.


RULES FOR WARHAMMER 40K TOURNAMENT

Rule Books:
The Warhammer 40,000 SIXTH Edition Rules will be used.

The following is a list of legal army choices:
Codex: Black Templars
Codex: Blood Angels
Codex: Chaos Daemons (new book is legal)
Codex: Chaos Space Marines
Codex: Grey Knights
Codex: Dark Angels
Codex: Dark Eldar
Codex: Eldar
Codex: Imperial Guard
Codex: Necrons
Codex: Orks
Codex: Space Marines
Codex: Space Wolves
Codex: Tau Empire
Codex: Tyranids
Codex: Sister of Battle (White Dwarf)




MODELS AND POINTS:

1. Each player must bring an army consisting of 1850 points (but no fewer than 1825), in accordance with these rules...

2. All models must follow “What You See Is What You Get” (WYSIWYG). All weapons, war gear, and so forth must be represented on the model.

3. Pictures of conversions or "counts as" models must be emailed to the Tournament Organizer unless they have previously been approved.

4. Warlord Traits - At the start of each game, before deployment, select two tables.  Roll a die for each table.  Choose ONE of the two results as your Warlord Trait for that game.

5. Psychic Powers - At the start of each game, prior to deployment, players may choose to select the psychic powers listed in their Codex as normal OR swap them for a number of rolls on the psychic disciplines tables per the Warhammer 40,000 rule book. Unless stated otherwise, you MAY NOT mix and match Codex and rule book powers.

6. Unfortunately, Forge World Imperial Armor units (and army lists) may NOT be used in this event.  Forge world models may be used where appropriate, however.

7. We will require that each participant submits an itemized army list to a Battleground Tournament Organizer on or before Monday, March 25th (roughly a week before the event).  An Army Builder .pdf is preferred but a detailed text file (.txt) is acceptable.  PLEASE include the number of points each upgrade and unit costs on your list.

Please email lists to ChaseLaq@gmail.com as soon as they are finalized.

8. If illegal units or other rules violations are found in a player’s army list, at a minimum, the models in violation will be removed from all subsequent play. In addition, tournament points may be deducted and/or award eligibility may be forfeited. If in doubt, please ask for clarification in advance from a Battleground Tournament Organizer.

9.  Restrictions:

       • This event will not use "Mysterious Terrain" (p.102-103).
       • This event will not use "Archotech Artefacts" (p 106).
       • This event will not use "Unique Terrain" (p. 107).
       • This event will not allow The Fortress of Redemption.


A modified version of 3 book SCENARIOS will be used.  Certain details will be posted shortly.  They are going to adhere as closely to the book as is reasonable and doable.


HOW THE TOURNAMENT WORKS:

• Competitors will participate in three (3) games over the course of the day. In each game, you will play a scenario and record the outcome of the battle on your results sheet. Each round you will play a different opponent.  Each round will last 2 hours and players will be given 15 minutes to deploy before this timer starts.

• In the first round, players will be matched up randomly. After the first round, players will be matched up according to current rankings in the tournament (based on the number of points they've scored) e.g., the player in first place will play the player in second place and so on. We will try our best not to pair players that come to the event together or regularly play each other in the first round. If a player receives a BYE they will be awarded the average of the winning players points for the round.

• You will not play the same person twice.

• We will do our best to prevent a player from playing on the same table twice.

• The pairings for each round will be announced as soon as they are determined. Please be sure to arrive at your table ready to play right away.

• Slow playing will NOT be tolerated.  Players are expected to complete at least 4 rounds in each game.  If you suspect your opponent is slow playing PLEASE notify a Battleground staff member as soon as possible as we can not do anything about alleged slow play after the fact.

• Each game will be played on a 4' x 6' board.

• Players will receive Results Sheets and Player's Choice Sheets for each round at the beginning of the event. Each results sheet must be filled in properly to ensure that match-ups and point totals are correct. Once the sheets are completed they are to be turned in at the counter so the scores can be entered into the computer.




BATTLES:

The SIXTH Edition Rulebook and FAQ will be in use for all games and will be the definitive guide for all rules. The time limit for each game is 2 hours. At the end of this time limit, the round will be called; players will need to finish the round as quickly as possible.


What You Need to Bring with You:
-Your (hopefully painted) miniatures
-At least TWO copies of your army list
-Rulebooks are required as are any additional books you need
-Pen and paper
-Dice and templates
-Tape measure
-Something to transport your army from table to table



STORE CREDIT AWARDS WILL BE GIVEN OUT TO:
Store credit is good for any product in the store and all subsequent events.  It never expires and will be saved for you.

Best General
Second Best Generals
Third Best Generals


Player's Choice
Best Appearance
Smokin' Boots


• A player may only receive one award, the exception to this is Best Appearance.


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Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: SiniStarR on February 25, 2013, 11:38:37 PM
ahhhh damn. I may have missed it, but what about allies?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on February 25, 2013, 11:51:34 PM
ahhhh damn. I may have missed it, but what about allies?

Everything is as normal as far as army comp goes.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Grimwulfe on February 26, 2013, 09:03:39 AM
Has there always been a 32 Player cap?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: robpro on February 26, 2013, 11:29:06 AM
Are models required to be painted/based to any standards?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Grimwulfe on February 26, 2013, 11:45:11 AM
No painting requirement however models need to be based according to rules.  No painting on bases either however.  EVERYTHING needs to be WYSIWYG
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on February 26, 2013, 01:38:55 PM
Has there always been a 32 Player cap?

It's usually 40, but 16 tables is a lot easier than a potential 20.  It requires moving things around a lot less.

Coming off of PAX East I'm in the market to have to move things as little as possible.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on February 26, 2013, 01:40:05 PM
No painting requirement however models need to be based according to rules.  No painting on bases either however.  EVERYTHING needs to be WYSIWYG

This.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Benjamin on February 26, 2013, 07:18:21 PM
Are models required to be painted/based to any standards?

It should be noted, it will be very difficult to win Player's Choice without a painted army. But you can sure win Best General. :)
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on February 26, 2013, 07:20:23 PM
I honestly wouldn't mind if we required painted armies more often.  Or at least like 75% painted (everyone understands that sometimes you bought and added a new unit).  No one likes to play a grey army, it hurts the eyes. 
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: PhoenixFire on February 26, 2013, 07:31:16 PM
I honestly wouldn't mind if we required painted armies more often.  Or at least like 75% painted (everyone understands that sometimes you bought and added a new unit).  No one likes to play a grey army, it hurts the eyes.

Obviously playing a painted army is more fun and in the future maybe BG can start doing events that have several months lead time for people to fine-tune their lists and get it painted (perhaps next years invitational for example)

You have to look at it from a business perspective as BG is a business. More requirements mean less people attending which means less income. Every tournament at BG I've ever attended you have maybe 25% fully painted armies, 50% half or almost fully painted, and 25% naked or primed.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on February 26, 2013, 08:02:37 PM
Mur, if I had to do a "poll from memory" I'd say there was maybe 1 completely unpainted army per event, maybe a handful that were some form of partially unpainted, at most. 
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: robpro on February 26, 2013, 08:08:47 PM
I don't mean to give the impression that my entire army isn't painted, but I do have 2-3 models I'd want to run in an 1850 that I haven't had time to get to. Figured I'd make sure it's not a problem to put them in a list before I drive out.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on February 26, 2013, 08:22:32 PM
So I definitely started out a tactical player first, painter second.  (though pretty much all my stuff is painted, all the time, now, I'm stll never going to win painting awards)  I'm pretty understanding when someone has, say, 1 unit unpainted, even 2.  But when the whole army is at least half undone, that's when I get to feeling, "there outta be a rule".  That's pretty rare at BG, but it does happen. 
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: andalucien on February 26, 2013, 09:23:39 PM
Personally I would vote for a 100% painted policy.   Not that I've always fielded all painted models but I try. 
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Erich on February 26, 2013, 09:33:52 PM
Personally I would vote for a 100% painted policy.

Totally understand why it's not always possible though.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Benjamin on February 26, 2013, 09:55:12 PM
The Plainville community is still quite young. We're edging toward the possibility of 100% paint. Plus, edition changes and new codices, all that leads to a lot of desire to play and not enough time to paint properly. I understand that quite well.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: King of the Elves on February 26, 2013, 10:48:10 PM
Whenever I play, I try to have all my models primed. It at lease shows that I am planning on painting them, and I would be 100% towards a painting requirement as well.  Maybe for the next 500 point one???
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: BrianP on February 26, 2013, 11:11:07 PM
As noted in the previous Invitational thread, I think it would be amazing if that particular event had a 100% painted policy.

As for the "regular" events, while I would much rather play against a painted force I think trying to track and manage any percentage-based policy would be far more work than it is worth.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on February 27, 2013, 12:35:46 AM
There's quite a few reasons why we don't require any models to be painted or primed for (the vast majority of) our tournaments and events.  Some have been touched upon in this thread.

The largest contributing factor is that I want our tournaments and events to be as accessible as possible to as many players as possible and as many army designs as possible.  It is my belief that tournament attendance would drop if a painting requirement was implemented and that's worse for everyone involved, including the people that don't play or are discouraged because of it.

For instance, I don't ever plan to tell the 15 year old (or college kid) that he's got to paint the 90 orks (or guardsmen) he's got before he can play in a tournament / event.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Erich on February 27, 2013, 08:21:03 AM
Whenever I play, I try to have all my models primed. It at lease shows that I am planning on painting them, and I would be 100% towards a painting requirement as well.  Maybe for the next 500 point one???

Yeah, it is about progress. A player may not have a fully painted army for tournament A, but show up for tournament B with several units painted and then, tournament C with even more. That's great as it shows a desire to get a fully painted force on the table. We all know it takes a long time to paint an army.

Please though, enforce WYSIWYG and fully assembled models.

Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Thefallen on February 27, 2013, 10:02:45 PM
Im just curious as to why people can't use 40k approved FW units. Excluding titans and superheavys most FW stuff is pretty balanced (pts to power wise). The ”40k approved” stuff isn't overpowered or broken.  The fill the gaps for some armies.  Not to mention it could help balance the older codexes to the newer ones. Not to mention that players might be able to stand up to and possibly beat those super cheesy net-lists that the WAAC players love so much.
Just curious . Im not trolling.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: PhoenixFire on February 27, 2013, 10:19:00 PM
Im just curious as to why people can't use 40k approved FW units. Excluding titans and superheavys most FW stuff is pretty balanced (pts to power wise). The ”40k approved” stuff isn't overpowered or broken.  The fill the gaps for some armies.  Not to mention it could help balance the older codexes to the newer ones. Not to mention that players might be able to stand up to and possibly beat those super cheesy net-lists that the WAAC players love so much.
Just curious . Im not trolling.

I know Adepticon allows Forgeworld and has a huge list of what is allowed. I'm not sure how many other big tournaments allow it (NOVA, etc)
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Benjamin on February 27, 2013, 10:32:15 PM
Im just curious as to why people can't use 40k approved FW units.
Because stores that encourage people to spend money elsewhere rarely stay open. :)
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on February 28, 2013, 01:55:37 AM
I have my doubts on how much it would really matter.  What percentage funds spent on BG plastic minitures would really get spent on overseas resin, instead?  A very small  fraction, I imagine.  Most FW is bought by senior gamers more for the visuals more than anything else, using the associated rules is just a bonus. 

At the doubles tournament in abington, how many FW models were there, even?  I had one HW model, which if I wasn't allowed to use as his FW rules I often use him to be Farsight or something else. 
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on February 28, 2013, 04:51:12 AM
I think it's probably a lot more than most people would initially consider.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: keithb on February 28, 2013, 10:17:20 AM
I think it's probably a lot more than most people would initially consider.

I doubt it.  I mean, I know for me, you would get a lot more money out of me RE: Eldar if I could take FW stuff. Otherwise I am not doing the army. I haven't done a different one because I am not doing that either.

How many FW armies are exclusively made from FW models? Hardly any.  Which means they have to buy regular GW stuff, or adding to an army that most people here would have bought here.

There are two situations, people who buy a splash model to supplement their force(IE most people), and people who are going to spend the money to make a mainly FW model army(Older gamer with enough money to do so).   The first situation isn't a problem, shit, it might even sell more GW stuff for you because the local meta will change.

Why stop at Forgeworld chase?  Why not ban the Sporepod that Bill or I bought for our Tyranid army since GW doesn't offer one.  Make it so the only legal sporepod is based on a space marine drop pod so I could possibly buy it here.  I use alternative models in my Fantasy armies(much easier to do than 40k), things that are not availible for sale at BG, should they be banned? 

Seriously, the people who are going to buy/use FW are typically gamers who are heavily invested in the game. People who are heavily invested in the game, have a strong interest in BG doing well as it is the healthiest game store within like 3 hours, and constantly runs the best events. 

Most of us already buy through you despite easy opportunity to buy them cheaper on the internet.
Shit, if it would help I would buy FW through you AND pay you shipping (even though larger orders are often shipped for free), so the store makes a little.  Do you have to follow suggested retail for FW? I would gladly buy a FW item/book that is in the store and a 20$ "Soda" if that is what it takes.

Perhaps we should make this a separate discussion?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on February 28, 2013, 10:26:53 AM
That wraithlord farseer guy makes and eldar army, man.  I would totally play an eldar army just for wraithlords and bikes.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: andalucien on February 28, 2013, 12:42:55 PM
I am with Keith on this one.   You know that I often play armies that are heavily non-GW models...  but I still pay the tourney entry fee (and buy some of the paint etc) from Battlegrounds so I'm still being a customer. 

And actually... this might sound absurd but it might illustrate the point... If you were to charge an extra $10-15 on the entry fee for a tourney if the player wanted to include any Forgeworld models, I'D PROBABLY PAY it.  And not only that, I'd be happy because now I get to bring my ForgeWorld to a tournament!   
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Thefallen on March 01, 2013, 01:00:50 PM
Well my mortis dred I built was purchaced at bg.. 1 aegis dline and a dred. thats $80. I spent at BG and if I could use FW rules I would buy two more. that's $160. I would spend if FW rules get included in future turni's. 
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: steelforge on March 02, 2013, 03:33:25 PM
I would vote against a painted policy.
Here's why.
I want to play Space Wolves in the 1850.
I created my new 'leet list.
It requires 9 Combi guys.
I do not have 9 combi guys.
I checked my bits box.
Lacking the legs and torso, I need to go to BG to get stuff.  Additionally my list needs another transport.
Thus I am going to buy a Blood Angels box set.

If I were required to play all painted, I would play Tau and buy nothing.

-Gundam John
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on March 02, 2013, 03:38:11 PM
Battleground currently has zero plans to require painting in any of the "normal" events we run.


Here's the list of events where we've required painted armies:

The Megabattle (once a year)
The first 500 point event (the 2nd didn't have the requirement)
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Grand Master Steve on March 02, 2013, 07:37:51 PM
Aw no Forge World? I was planning on having my minotaurs ready for the Event :(. Oh well! I will use my old reliable Ultramarines 4th company. Are any other abington regulars going? Due to my poor sleep cycle im going to try to get a room at I think a nearby sister hotel and have to pay practicly nothing for it.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on March 02, 2013, 08:21:22 PM
There's a Hoilday Inn Express like 4 min and 10 min away from the store, Steve.

There's a regualt Holiday in like 9 min away too.

Everyone that plays in this event is also invited to join us for TableTop Game Day (https://www.facebook.com/events/314569378665738/) afterwards.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on March 02, 2013, 08:22:00 PM
There's a Hoilday Inn Express like 4 min and 10 min away from the store, Steve.

There's a regular Holiday Inn like 9 min away too.

Everyone that plays in this event is also invited to join us for TableTop Game Day (https://www.facebook.com/events/314569378665738/) afterwards.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Dan Bunker on March 02, 2013, 08:34:32 PM
Does this count towards an invitational? is there an invitational this year?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on March 02, 2013, 08:47:40 PM
I have not made public mention of what my plans are for the Invitational this year.

Here's a glimpse...

Invitational Qualifying tournaments will likely resume in the summer.  The year will likely span something like May - May or August - August.

It's just really, really difficult to plan an event that people can attend at the end of the year.

We are almost certainly going to split the two events this year as well.

2x 16 person events.  Win - Loss (4 rounds), 1 day.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Grand Master Steve on March 02, 2013, 08:48:55 PM
There's a Hoilday Inn Express like 4 min and 10 min away from the store, Steve.

There's a regualt Holiday in like 9 min away too.

Everyone that plays in this event is also invited to join us for TableTop Game Day (https://www.facebook.com/events/314569378665738/) afterwards.

Im making Arrangements at the Holiday Inn Mansfield which is 3.72 Miles away so I dont have to drive the morning of and risk falling asleep behind the wheel.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on March 08, 2013, 10:21:24 PM
Here's the latest in what I'm thinking in terms of "by the book" scenarios (thanks, Ben).


Adepticon style scoring.

mission: emperor's will + big guns never tire (Emperor's Will Never Tires!)
deployment: vanguard strike
5 objectives, nova style
primary: emperor's will (the objective in each deployment zone)
secondary: three objectives in the middle "no man's land"
special rules: heavy support options count as scoring for all objectives

mission: the scouring + purge the alien (Purge the Scouring Alien!)
deployment: hammer & anvil (maybe)
6 objectives, placed by players (per scouring)
primary: the scouring (we can provide players with paper to keep track of objective values, highly suggested)
secondary: purge the alien (kill points)
special rules: see missions

mission: the relic + crusade (The Relic Crusade!)
deployment: dawn of war
5 objectives. 1 objective, dead center of board (relic). players place other 4.
primary: crusade
secondary: relic
special rules: see missions


Tertiary will be slay the warlord, linebreaker and first blood at 1, 2, and 3 points a piece.

I may throw in the point differential in an effort to get some variation cooking.

Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Bill on March 08, 2013, 10:50:01 PM
With emperor's will never tires; does this mean there will be 8 objectives on the table?

Purge the scouring alien; will each player have 3,2,1 point value objective to place or will they placed than random per book?

Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on March 08, 2013, 11:46:34 PM
Thanks for letting us know what you were thinking for missions, Chase.

mission: the scouring + purge the alien (Purge the Scouring Alien!)
deployment: hammer & anvil (maybe)
6 objectives, placed by players (per scouring)
primary: the scouring (we can provide players with paper to keep track of objective values, highly suggested)
secondary: purge the alien (kill points)
special rules: see missions

While even numbers is better than odd numbers places, it's still not great.  You'll find things like the gunline army putting all their objectives on the back line, while the more assaulty army can't. 

I really would prefer that half or all of the objectives be static.  Or not hammer and anvil.  H&A is probably the worst deployment to let people place objectives on.  I like H&A, generally, just not when people get to place.

IN Big guns and scouring, are killing Heavy or Fast, respectively, worth extra points?  That would affect my list choices, a lot.    That's why they make them worth a victory point in those missions, so you don't just load up on them.

Quote
Tertiary will be slay the warlord, linebreaker and first blood at 1, 2, and 3 points a piece.

Rotating through which ones are worth the most points?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Benjamin on March 09, 2013, 12:18:59 AM
With emperor's will never tires; does this mean there will be 8 objectives on the table?

Purge the scouring alien; will each player have 3,2,1 point value objective to place or will they placed than random per book?
Emperor's Will Never Tires, 5 objectives total. 1 in each deployment zone (primary), 3 in the middle (secondary).

Purge the Scouring Alien. It would seem wise to have objectives placed first, with players alternating, and then roll for deployment. I'd like to see the 4,3,3,2,2,1 scheme in play.

Overall, I think it would be nice to modify the book missions as little as possible, since so many people have argued their value. It'll make a nice theme for the day, at least.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on March 09, 2013, 12:20:47 AM
With emperor's will never tires; does this mean there will be 8 objectives on the table?

Nope, just 5.  Vanguard deployment should make this very cool.

Primary you're playing Emps Will, where heavies score.
Secondary you're fighting for the 3 in the "center" (no mans land in between the respective Vanguard DZs), where heavies can score.

I'm a huge fan of this mission.


Quote
Purge the scouring alien; will each player have 3,2,1 point value objective to place or will they placed than random per book?

They will be determined at random, as per the book.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Benjamin on March 09, 2013, 12:39:30 AM
I really would prefer that half or all of the objectives be static.  Or not hammer and anvil.  H&A is probably the worst deployment to let people place objectives on.  I like H&A, generally, just not when people get to place.

IN Big guns and scouring, are killing Heavy or Fast, respectively, worth extra points?  That would affect my list choices, a lot.    That's why they make them worth a victory point in those missions, so you don't just load up on them.

The Scouring was meant to complement the Hammer & Anvil deployment. Fast Attack scoring units should keep players on their toes, regardless of where objectives are placed.

If old VPs end up here, maybe those units can be worth more, or each Heavy/Fast unit destroyed can count as an objective toward tallying up the final score for those respective missions? It wouldn't be impossible to adapt that principle.

I feel if a player loads up on Heavy and/or Fast choices, they are likely to find their lists imbalanced for other missions. I personally never thought it was a good idea to make these different slots scoring units, but this whole tournament concept is "by the book" as much as possible.

If there wasn't a full house, I'd suggest running VPs out of the book, by the book. But there has to be a greater deal of variance in scoring for this event, based on expected attendance. Adepticon style has to date served BG well.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on March 09, 2013, 12:42:17 AM
Thanks for letting us know what you were thinking for missions, Chase.

No prob.  It's similar to what we had going on in that other thread.  These were Ben's and super close to what I was going for previously.

Quote
mission: the scouring + purge the alien (Purge the Scouring Alien!)
deployment: hammer & anvil (maybe)
6 objectives, placed by players (per scouring)
primary: the scouring (we can provide players with paper to keep track of objective values, highly suggested)
secondary: purge the alien (kill points)
special rules: see missions

While even numbers is better than odd numbers places, it's still not great.  You'll find things like the gunline army putting all their objectives on the back line, while the more assaulty army can't.

I'm not super worried about this.  It's a book mission and has book mission issues.  The number of points each objective is worth will be determined randomly. 4, 3, 3, 2, 2, 1 is likely what we'll go with.

Quote
I really would prefer that half or all of the objectives be static.  Or not hammer and anvil.  H&A is probably the worst deployment to let people place objectives on.  I like H&A, generally, just not when people get to place.

I don't really want to mess with the book mission ideas too much for this event.  I agree that Hammer and Anvil is likely not ideal for this scenario.  I am reluctant to use H&A in this event unless we modify it (which I don't want to do.)  This is mainly because I may go to 40 players and the store would be very congested at that point.  H&A might be too awkward.

Quote
IN Big guns and scouring, are killing Heavy or Fast, respectively, worth extra points?  That would affect my list choices, a lot.    That's why they make them worth a victory point in those missions, so you don't just load up on them.

Good feedback.  Maybe we could make them worth double towards the point differential?


Quote
Tertiary will be slay the warlord, linebreaker and first blood at 1, 2, and 3 points a piece.

Rotating through which ones are worth the most points?

Yes.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Dan Bunker on March 09, 2013, 08:30:51 AM
The scouring book mission is by far the worst. I've had it happen more then once where my opponent has 10 of the objective points in there deployment zone. Makes it even worse if you use the long depolyment. If you keep things even with each player having a 3,2,1 it will allow for a normal game, not a unfair advantage for 1 person just based off of luck during set up.
I understand wanting to keep as close to the rule book as possible but if games workshop had any clue how to write the rules they wouldn't have 100's of pages of erratas and FAQs.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Benjamin on March 09, 2013, 09:34:56 AM
To be more specific, here's what I envisioned for the Scouring mission.

Six objectives scoring 4,3,3,2,2,1 like the book. Players roll off to determine who places the first objective (of their choosing). Players then alternate until each objective is placed. Players then roll for Deployment, etc. So worst case scenario, yes there are 10 points on one side, if you allow that to happen. Objective placement could be tweaked too (distance from each other, board edge, etc) to force at least some of them toward the middle of the board.

Sidebar: I just realized, if the values of the objectives are each increased by 1 point (objectives of values 5,4,4,3,3,2), that brings their sum to 21 points, which is exactly the number the primary objective would be worth for Adepticon scoring.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Dan Bunker on March 09, 2013, 09:56:01 AM
Adepticon totally changed their scoring this year. I would suggest against making the primary worth however many points of objectives you control per person. This would give a huge advantage to armies that generate extra troops. i.e. tyranids and daemons.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on March 09, 2013, 02:31:01 PM
To be more specific, here's what I envisioned for the Scouring mission.

Six objectives scoring 4,3,3,2,2,1 like the book. Players roll off to determine who places the first objective (of their choosing). Players then alternate until each objective is placed. Players then roll for Deployment, etc. So worst case scenario, yes there are 10 points on one side, if you allow that to happen. Objective placement could be tweaked too (distance from each other, board edge, etc) to force at least some of them toward the middle of the board.

Sidebar: I just realized, if the values of the objectives are each increased by 1 point (objectives of values 5,4,4,3,3,2), that brings their sum to 21 points, which is exactly the number the primary objective would be worth for Adepticon scoring.

This is good, this is how it should happen.  Go Ben!
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on March 09, 2013, 02:51:04 PM
I feel if a player loads up on Heavy and/or Fast choices, they are likely to find their lists imbalanced for other missions. I personally never thought it was a good idea to make these different slots scoring units, but this whole tournament concept is "by the book" as much as possible.

Well, let me give you an example of what I was talking about.  I'm working on variations of my standard Tau+GK list.  Recent codex/meta changes have made me think I need to void cover saves more, so I was thinking more pathfinders with markerlights.

Now, I could use 1 group 8 pathfinders with a devil fish, and use that to transport firewarriors (for whom I would have bought a DF, anyway).  Or I could use 2 groups of 4, using the two DFs for two groups of FWs.

Same cost, but one has two fast attack units (both the pathfinders and the DF, 3 with the drones) while the other has 4 (or 6).  Having the FA yield bonus pts makes me think extra about taking 2 smaller pathfinder choices, which I actually think is a good thing.

Quote from: Chase
I'm not super worried about this.  It's a book mission and has book mission issues.  The number of points each objective is worth will be determined randomly. 4, 3, 3, 2, 2, 1 is likely what we'll go wit

I'm a little worried you're not worried.  Not to be dramatic about it, but you ran it like this at the doubles, I and I don't think it was a good scenario. 

Ben's idea about having people place objectives first is good. 

And for the record, I really LIKE hammer and Anvil deployment, I think you should definitely use it, and it's fine even with tables end to end.  I just think it's the worst in combination with letting players place the objectives. 
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on March 09, 2013, 04:46:13 PM
What happened to the book missions being extremely balanced?

I mean, we can change everything around like normal or we can stick with the book.  The idea here is that we'd do an event as close to "by the book" as possible in an effort to give the vocal few what they wanted and to see how it went.

Any mission where players place objectives has the potential to be mismatched, which is half the point.  This is ENTIRELY different than the scenario from the doubles in that each player has an equal number of markers to place and the points each marker is worth are determined at random.

If players place all of their markers as far away from their opponent as possible they run the risk of being rewarded big and penalized big equally.  If this is how the players choose the outcome of their game, I'm okay with that.

I sure as hell wouldn't want to risk something like that.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on March 09, 2013, 06:30:26 PM
Ok. Then let players place terrain. Have first blood, warlord, line breaker worth just as much as as scoring an objective. Kiling a FA during scouring, too.

I'm not sure any of that addresses player placed objectives. (Well terrain placement does, somewhat). But the point is, even if the BRB missions WERE perfectly balanced, once you've changed one thing, they're not balanced anymore, so additional changes may be required.

Like Ben said, let players place before picking sides. I saw this misdion before, it wasnt great. The fact that there's an even number this time helps though.

Random value of objectives is a different subject, I think.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: PhoenixFire on March 09, 2013, 07:07:50 PM
Personally i like Hammer and Anvil, it worked fine at the doubles in Abington and you had twice the people with really close tables.

Placing terrain is a recipe for disaster and is never done at tournament so i don't know why we would start now

random value of objectives was one of my favorite missions at templecon, you would need 6 objectives (or an even amount of objectives) to make it "fair" however

static objectives are fine for some missions, but i'd prefer not to have static objectives in all 3 games
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on March 09, 2013, 07:28:47 PM
Personally i like Hammer and Anvil, it worked fine at the doubles in Abington and you had twice the people with really close tables.

This heavily depends on if I up the event to 40 players or not.  If we go to 40 the way we have to build the room may not work well with H&A.  People learning on foam tables on sawhorses and stuff like that...

Quote
Placing terrain is a recipe for disaster and is never done at tournament so i don't know why we would start now

This is correct for SO many reasons.

Quote
random value of objectives was one of my favorite missions at templecon, you would need 6 objectives (or an even amount of objectives) to make it "fair" however

I agree.  I think the concept is awesome.  I also think it's a lot more complex than people realize.

Quote
static objectives are fine for some missions, but i'd prefer not to have static objectives in all 3 games

I agree.  It's boring.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Benjamin on March 09, 2013, 11:48:45 PM
I agree with Chase (surprise!).

I too prefer in general players placing their own objectives.

The Emperor's Will Never Tires is designed exactly the way it is with 5 fixed objectives, mostly out of simplicity in terms of comprehension. (You pick up the mission for the first time, do you understand it?) I don't know if it's an elegant solution, but the mission would be a complete mess to explain otherwise.

Purge the Alien Relic has one fixed objective, at least to start the game. That one is not my fault. :)
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chancetragedy on March 11, 2013, 05:50:59 PM
Hi guys this will be my first BG event and I can't wait to meet some new people and expand my playgroup hopefully!

Im not a fan of H&A as I don't believe it rewards tactical aggressive play.  Especially if we're cramped and can't get around the tables easily.  Although from what I just read in the thread I think it would be fine.  I actually really like the ability to place objectives as I feel it helps as a general no matter what army you play.  I'm very excited to be coming out for this though so I'm pretty cool with whatever. 

And to the painting thing I don't think it should be required for general tournaments ever. Because like chase said you want them to be accessible to everyone.  With that being said my army is painted but not yet based so take that for whatever. Just my 2 cents ;p
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Loranus on March 11, 2013, 07:39:22 PM
>.> Not even a whole penny only 2/100 of a penny. :P You will have fun at this event trust me on this one. I am determined to try and have my army painted for this event because I have been lazy about it at every other tournament I been too.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on March 11, 2013, 11:47:30 PM
We have 40 people registered.  We're upping the cap to 40.

Who needs sleep?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Loranus on March 11, 2013, 11:56:21 PM
I do I need to replace the serpentine belt on my car. Replace the Spark Plugs and the Plug wires and try to find the oxygen sensors replace them too so I can not have my car demolish itself the day before the tournament like the last time.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Erich on March 12, 2013, 08:02:56 AM
We have 40 people registered.  We're upping the cap to 40.

Who needs sleep?

That's a lot of people.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Bill on March 12, 2013, 09:04:49 AM
We have 40 people registered.  We're upping the cap to 40.

Who needs sleep?

That's a lot of people.



We're gonna need a bigger boat.

P.S- The boat shall by named GT and she will be grand!!
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on March 12, 2013, 01:11:50 PM
A bunch of new guys this time around too.

Should be a good one.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Tharcil on March 12, 2013, 01:38:25 PM
A bunch of new guys this time around too.

Should be a good one.

Fresh Meat!
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chancetragedy on March 12, 2013, 01:49:43 PM
Wow 40 people is big!  Can't wait, hopefully us fresh faces will make a fine showing of ourselves haha.


Also is there any type of healthy food around the store?  Like not McDonald's or crap like that?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on March 12, 2013, 04:11:10 PM
Wow 40 people is big!  Can't wait, hopefully us fresh faces will make a fine showing of ourselves haha.


Also is there any type of healthy food around the store?  Like not McDonald's or crap like that?

There's tons of not-so-healthy food.

You can get a salad at the pizza joint next to us, there's a Subway really close, and there's a bunch of Chinese food joints that may have healthy options.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chancetragedy on March 12, 2013, 04:29:33 PM
Awesome thanks!  Subway is great!
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Grand Master Steve on March 12, 2013, 04:55:37 PM
This will be my first Solo in Plainville. Dont know how I will do.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on March 12, 2013, 05:20:20 PM
I highly recommend what I think they call the "Bubba BBQ"

BBQ chicken pizza, but with onions rings and bacon, too.  Now THAT'S healthy!!!!
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Benjamin on March 12, 2013, 08:29:23 PM
P.S- The boat shall by named GT and she will be grand!!
There are GTs that don't even hit 40 players. We'll be the Titanic of GTs.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: PhoenixFire on March 12, 2013, 08:54:47 PM
P.S- The boat shall by named GT and she will be grand!!
There are GTs that don't even hit 40 players. We'll be the Titanic of GTs.

Ben, are you implying we are going to sink and Chase is Leonardo Dicaprio?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on March 13, 2013, 03:27:57 AM
P.S- The boat shall by named GT and she will be grand!!
There are GTs that don't even hit 40 players. We'll be the Titanic of GTs.

Ben, are you implying we are going to sink and Chase is Leonardo Dicaprio?

I'd go down with the ship.

And I'd love to pull the tail Leo has / does.  (Am I allowed to say that?)
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on March 13, 2013, 03:29:19 AM
This will be my first Solo in Plainville. Dont know how I will do.

Did you email me to sign up?  I don't think you did...  :/
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on March 13, 2013, 03:43:00 AM
And as far as the GT thing goes... We've got close to 40 tables now, although probably only 30 of them are usable for tournaments.

What's keeping me from putting major thought into a 40k GT right this minute is the lack of quality terrain we have.  We do NOT have 30 tables worth of quality terrain.  Building the room for this tournament (20 tables) will be an interesting exercise in seeing how far the good / nice stuff goes.

If we can get the last 500,000 Magic cards sorted, graded, filed, and listed online we can focus on finishing Abington, improving / fixing Plainville, and then I want to give some SERIOUS thought to the future of 40k and miniature wargaming at Battleground.  I've got some very, very rough ideas kicking around and I think the community will like all of them.

Battleground WILL run an annual GT.  I will ask for support from everyone.  It will be awesome.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Benjamin on March 13, 2013, 07:33:29 AM
And I'd love to pull the tail Leo has / does.  (Am I allowed to say that?)
I don't know if you're allowed to say it, but I was thinking it.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: andalucien on March 13, 2013, 11:05:36 AM
Me too... those dogs are pretty cute.  What's wrong with saying that?
(http://dogs.thefuntimesguide.com/files/leonardo-dicaprio-dogs.jpg)
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chancetragedy on March 13, 2013, 12:45:39 PM
P.S- The boat shall by named GT and she will be grand!!
There are GTs that don't even hit 40 players. We'll be the Titanic of GTs.

Ben, are you implying we are going to sink and Chase is Leonardo Dicaprio?

I'd go down with the ship.

And I'd love to pull the tail Leo has / does.  (Am I allowed to say that?)

So who's painting who's naked boobs on a sinking ship?  I don't know any of you yet but I find myself being strangely drawn to this conversation...

@Chase - I'm not very good at it, but I'd be down to help in making terrain if people were to be together and build stuff.  I'm always down to help build the community and another good GT for MA/NE sounds awesome.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Grand Master Steve on March 13, 2013, 03:24:19 PM
the night before im having a hotel room. Plenty of Blow Naked Chicks and booze to go around. :-p
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on March 13, 2013, 05:13:01 PM
the night before im having a hotel room. Plenty of Blow Naked Chicks and booze to go around. :-p

You still haven't registered.  :(
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Grand Master Steve on March 13, 2013, 06:49:11 PM
the night before im having a hotel room. Plenty of Blow Naked Chicks and booze to go around. :-p

You still haven't registered.  :(

I could have sworn I did. Ok I sent you an e-mail to put me down
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Benjamin on March 13, 2013, 07:32:51 PM
I could have sworn I did. Ok I sent you an e-mail to put me down
Overheard at the hotel room:

"Hey baby, ever been with a tournament alternate?"
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: PhoenixFire on March 13, 2013, 08:14:51 PM
I could have sworn I did. Ok I sent you an e-mail to put me down
Overheard at the hotel room:

"Hey baby, ever been with a tournament alternate?"

It's probably a safe bet you'll get in steve. Unfortunately chase usually has about a dozen drops the day before or so
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on March 13, 2013, 09:11:21 PM
So who's painting who's naked boobs on a sinking ship?  I don't know any of you yet but I find myself being strangely drawn to this conversation...

@Chase - I'm not very good at it, but I'd be down to help in making terrain if people were to be together and build stuff.  I'm always down to help build the community and another good GT for MA/NE sounds awesome.

You'll fit right in.  :)

And if / when the time comes to involve the community in terrain making, you can count on the fact that I'll put the word out.

We're hoping to do a "terrain making competition" in May.  Loose plan looks like the entrance fee being your piece / pieces and the awards being decent sized amounts of store credit.  $100.00ish
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chancetragedy on March 13, 2013, 09:39:03 PM
Nice that's sounds awesome. 

I have a question for you chase, when do you think you'll lock down the missions for sure?  Is it gonna go till day of with the preliminaries you posted being the rough guideline? Or will they be solidified beforehand so we might be able to get practice games ahead of time with them.  Obviously I don't expect anything or anyone to work around little ole me, but I work evenings M-F so weekends are my only time to get practice games, and I'm hoping to get a couple in for this.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on March 13, 2013, 10:54:26 PM
Nice that's sounds awesome. 

I have a question for you chase, when do you think you'll lock down the missions for sure?  Is it gonna go till day of with the preliminaries you posted being the rough guideline? Or will they be solidified beforehand so we might be able to get practice games ahead of time with them.  Obviously I don't expect anything or anyone to work around little ole me, but I work evenings M-F so weekends are my only time to get practice games, and I'm hoping to get a couple in for this.

SUPER busy this time of year.  PAX East is next weekend and I'm essentially going crazy.

Tomorrow my workload is relatively light.  I HOPE I can finalize the scenarios then and send them out so the packet can get made.

The posted scenarios are a very solid shell.  There will be some minor changes.  I am still unsure that I'm going to do H&A deployment due to the way we have to set things up.  A point differential will be added to provide variance between scores.

They will look a lot like these. (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-AzuwQYWKDLcGhkdFkzdGF3VGs/edit?usp=sharing)
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Loranus on March 25, 2013, 02:50:45 PM
For a notice to everyone. Lists are due today.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Typhus on March 25, 2013, 03:37:44 PM
Did I sign up for this?  I feel like I did, but I have the attention span god gave a shovel.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on March 25, 2013, 05:07:15 PM
You did, Jared.  You're number 14!
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on March 25, 2013, 05:14:03 PM
It's like I was thinking I needed to preorder Bioshock....and then I got a text from gamestop that I did.  Christmas all over again!
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Typhus on March 26, 2013, 11:04:01 AM
You did, Jared.  You're number 14!

Whoops.  Guess I should get a list in.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: robpro on March 26, 2013, 04:09:22 PM
Not sure if its already been covered, but will you be using the Adepticon or Frontline open faqs? Or will everything just be from the GW faqs and spot rulings?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on March 26, 2013, 05:15:29 PM
For this event we will be using the GW FAQ.  Lots of rules questions have come up and been ruled on previous.

I expect relatively few (zero) controversial rules questions to come up.  Going forward we may use the Adepticon FAQ, however.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Mannahnin on March 27, 2013, 03:16:53 AM
Remember that the AdeptiFAQ, like the INAT was, is a supplement to the GW FAQs.  They use the GW FAQs too; they mostly just answer some more questions.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: robpro on March 27, 2013, 11:18:30 AM
Those faqs also made a couple big changes, like flyers being able to shoot straight down. Just wondering if that would be the case here or if we're sticking to the 45 degree angle in the book. It doesn't matter to me what gets used, I do want to know ahead of time so I don't play it wrong in the game.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on March 27, 2013, 12:01:06 PM
The last draft I saw (possibly there's a newer one) of the new INAT-ish FAQ had several glaring errors and covered things that had already been covered by GW FAQs.  It's a good idea in general but it didn't seem ready for primetime.  I imagine it will be much better post-adepticon. 
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: andalucien on March 27, 2013, 01:02:26 PM
The Adepticon FAQ and the theFrontline Gaming FAQ are all the same thing.  (And they are also the same as the Bay Area Open FAQ and the Feast of Blades FAQ and the WargamesCon FAQ).

These links may be to slightly separate versions, but you can see that the questions and wording are obviously from the same source.

http://www.adepticon.org/wpfiles/2013/40KAddendum.pdf
http://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/40k-faq/

These were supposedly hashed out over 100 or so hours of conference calls between these TO's, bringing up concerns that they and their players had, and voting on them.  Supposedly Yakface (the guy who maintained INAT) also participated.

In MY opinion, there are not obvious "errors" and they answer a lot of questions which are not covered by GW faq's.   I would be much happier going to tournaments where there was a pre-existing widely read and understood answer to all of these things, just like we used to have with the INAT.
   
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on March 27, 2013, 01:42:47 PM
Quote
Dark Angels units using the Deathwing Assault special rule are ignored for the purposes of calculating the number of units that may be held in Reserves. [pg. 44, C:DA]

There's no reason to think that. 

Quote
• When Chaos Daemons are taken as an allied detachment, two Daemonic Heralds may still be taken as a single HQ selection. [pg. 80, C:CD]
 

Why?  It's fine that they want to allow this, but it's completely made up out of thin air. 


Nothing else leaps out at me, this appears to be more recent than the draft I was talking about. 
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Loranus on March 27, 2013, 03:10:10 PM
I agree with Matt.

Deathwing Assault is a Choice. Unlike Drop Pods, Flyers, and Legion of the Damned that have to start in reserve you can put Deathwing on the table as a normal unit. Rulebook states if It must start in reserve it does not count toward having half on the table. Anything else counts towards it.

The Chaos Daemon one is based off the old Codex for Chaos Daemons. So you can not use any ruling in that FAQ for Chaos Daemons cause it is Out of Date ruling. The new Codex about that ruling says in your PRIMARY Detachment you can take up to 4 heralds in one HQ Slot. So if you were to take them as Allies each Herald would then take a full HQ slot by itself.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Mannahnin on March 27, 2013, 09:23:00 PM
Quote
Dark Angels units using the Deathwing Assault special rule are ignored for the purposes of calculating the number of units that may be held in Reserves. [pg. 44, C:DA]

There's no reason to think that. 
The argument for it is that you're forced to designate units making a DW assault before regular Reserves are declared, and by the time you get around to organizing your Reserves, those guys are basically out of consideration.  Overall I agree that it's still a choice, and IMO I think they should count, but I can see why folks would think that.

Quote
• When Chaos Daemons are taken as an allied detachment, two Daemonic Heralds may still be taken as a single HQ selection. [pg. 80, C:CD]
 

Why?  It's fine that they want to allow this, but it's completely made up out of thin air. 
It's from the old codex.  They specifically note that it hasn't been updated yet for the new codex. 
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: keithb on March 28, 2013, 01:19:53 PM
It is like I said before in a discussion about this.

They should clearly designate and FAQ sections with answers strickly by RAW that is mainly a convinence document.  And have a separate section for "Errata", where they flat out state how they want things to work, but have either shaky footing rules wise or no standing rules wise.  Then more events would use at least the FAQ part of it.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on March 29, 2013, 12:31:34 AM
Sadly, lots of the new guys have dropped from the event.  Bummer.  :(
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Mannahnin on March 29, 2013, 03:12:08 AM
They should clearly designate and FAQ sections with answers strickly by RAW that is mainly a convinence document. And have a separate section for "Errata", where they flat out state how they want things to work, but have either shaky footing rules wise or no standing rules wise.  Then more events would use at least the FAQ part of it.
They already enable this by specifically offering the document up for other people to use or modify as they see fit.  Extreme examples of "errata" like the flyer LOS ruling are rare.  In practice there is often a lot of disagreement about which exact rulings in a given FAQ are are "RAW" and which are changes.  The Deathwing Assault ruling is a classic example.  There are folks who will argue fervently that RAW is clear that they don't count.

I'd be happy as a clam to use the AdeptiFAQ; if I were modifying it for my own event I'd probably just say we were using it except for the flyer LOS ruling.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on March 29, 2013, 08:19:27 AM
Sadly, lots of the new guys have dropped from the event.  Bummer.  :(

Does that mean there is no more room?  I know someone that wanted to play.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: robpro on March 29, 2013, 11:06:24 AM
How many people are going now? Any spots available?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chancetragedy on March 29, 2013, 11:12:45 AM
I'm still signed up and attending as far as I know!  Hopefully everything is still good, I'm sure it will be a blast regardless of numbers.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: keithb on March 29, 2013, 11:19:42 AM
I'm still signed up and attending as far as I know!  Hopefully everything is still good, I'm sure it will be a blast regardless of numbers.

Yeah but higher numbers = more prize support for Bill.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: PhoenixFire on March 29, 2013, 11:51:08 AM
I'm still signed up and attending as far as I know!  Hopefully everything is still good, I'm sure it will be a blast regardless of numbers.

Yeah but higher numbers = more prize support for Bill.

lol yah, I played that list last night. Pretty nasty
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chancetragedy on March 29, 2013, 12:43:34 PM
Is that bill S and the tyranids from templecon?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Grand Master Steve on March 29, 2013, 06:01:40 PM
out of curiousity how many fellow Abington regulars will be present?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on March 29, 2013, 07:38:20 PM
Pretty sure the answer to that is 1.  Just you, Steve.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Grand Master Steve on March 30, 2013, 03:04:33 AM
awww :( I will do my best to represent
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: PhoenixFire on March 30, 2013, 10:40:29 PM
Another great tournament today. My only feedback is...

i think hammer and anvil worked even with that many tables

i really liked the multiple value objectives however next time i think each side should have the same amount of points so its even so it didn't unfold like today with one side having an advantage by getting the high value ones.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Benjamin on March 31, 2013, 03:20:38 AM
Hated Hammer & Anvil today. The tournament was too big / space too small. Stuck in the corner table, couldn't reach the other side of the board, couldn't walk around and it was constantly awkward for us to keep asking the other to move and check LOS on our own models. It didn't spoil my day, but it made playability unnecessarily complicated/difficult.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Loranus on March 31, 2013, 03:34:06 AM
Even being on an outside table I hated Hammer and anvil deployment anyways. I feel it gets congested for the armies because realistically you end up only in the middle 48 inches of the table. Anything farther than that is a special exclusive weapon range so you go from playing a 6 foot by 4 foot table to a 4 foot by 4 foot table that either severely helps an army or severely hurts it.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: andalucien on March 31, 2013, 09:47:48 AM
So, who won?  Tournament reports?  Did lots of people play Daemons?  Etc?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Mannahnin on March 31, 2013, 10:21:48 AM
Dan Bunker won; I think he was using his usual (Draigowing + Coteaz, dreads & cheap razor henchmen) GK, but I didn't actually see.  Troy was 2nd (GK Purifiers).  Player's Choice was Sam Gould (Daemons + CSM), Best Appearance Chris Scotti.

I liked Hammer and Anvil.  It was slightly awkward with the relatively tight space, but I appreciate that it really offers different tactical challenges, with the table being functionally 4' wide and 6' DEEP.  It's the only deployment, for example, where a Helldrake, Night Scythe or Doom Scythe can't threaten the whole table the turn it arrives.  I don't mind the suggestion of having each player's table half have the same total value of objectives, though.

Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Bill on March 31, 2013, 10:58:33 AM
I was using Daemons and I did a short write up on the dark star page if you wanted to check it out.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: PhoenixFire on March 31, 2013, 11:32:45 AM

I liked Hammer and Anvil.  It was slightly awkward with the relatively tight space, but I appreciate that it really offers different tactical challenges, with the table being functionally 4' wide and 6' DEEP.  It's the only deployment, for example, where a Helldrake, Night Scythe or Doom Scythe can't threaten the whole table the turn it arrives.  I don't mind the suggestion of having each player's table half have the same total value of objectives, though.

Agreed, hammer and anvil brings something new and interesting to the game.

The only in game challenges i see are the equal point value objectives and having equal terrain so a fortress of redemption doesn't block a whole side (although i dont think that was an issue yesterday)

The only logistic problems are having to walk down the isle to the other side of the board but i don't think a little exercise would hurt any of us.

The inclusion of mysterious objectives was a nice change as well.



Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: robpro on March 31, 2013, 12:05:10 PM
Had a blast at this event, hopefully I can get out there to the next one!
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on March 31, 2013, 02:59:17 PM
Hated Hammer & Anvil today. The tournament was too big / space too small. Stuck in the corner table, couldn't reach the other side of the board, couldn't walk around and it was constantly awkward for us to keep asking the other to move and check LOS on our own models. It didn't spoil my day, but it made playability unnecessarily complicated/difficult.

These are exactly the reasons why I have been reluctant.  I figured we'd do it and see what people thought.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Bill on March 31, 2013, 03:34:55 PM
From what I have seen; regardless of venue tall people like/don't mind hammer and anvil and people who can't or have trouble reaching the other side of the table hate it. I like the deployment but I can see how it can be frustrating for some.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Benjamin on March 31, 2013, 08:52:42 PM
I can appreciate the tactical challenges H&A presents, and I'm all for different things. But unless I can walk around a table, I don't like the challenge it presents in actually playing the game.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Tharcil on April 01, 2013, 11:24:42 AM
One logistical improvement that could help might be to leave a gap between the tables and the windows in the front of the store to improve traffic.  Would be nice not just for Hammer and Anvil, but also just getting around between games, moving your deep-striking models on the other side, and so you don't have to ask the same people to move to get by each time you do need to move.

Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: mchlwllms on April 01, 2013, 11:57:54 AM
tall people like/don't mind hammer and anvil and people who can't or have trouble reaching the other side of the table hate it

I can reach the other side of a table and I mind it simply because of what Ben said, I always feel uncomfortable being asked to determine LOS/ models under a blast on my own models. I always give an honest answer, but I am also worried that my opponent may have derived a different conclusion. Hammer and Anvil isn't bad when you can easily manage to circumnavigate the table, but in a packed store this isn't a realistic possibility. Not really sure what the best solution is for utilizing it in tournaments though.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on April 01, 2013, 02:42:59 PM
I thought the missions were damn near perfect.  We should do it like this every time. 
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Chase on April 01, 2013, 06:34:35 PM
I thought the missions were damn near perfect.  We should do it like this every time.

I have heard surprising little about what people thought of the scenarios this time around.  I guess that's a good thing?

I have heard that people were not a fan of placing six objectives (three a piece) at 4, 3, 3, 2, 2, 1.  People suggested that we do 3, 2, 1 and each person places one of each, determined randomly.  I feel like that sort of gets away from the book a bit, but /shrug, who knows.

Did people think that counting heavies and fast attacks as double points towards the tertiary was "enough" in the missions where they scored?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on April 01, 2013, 06:44:47 PM
I thought randomizing the objectives in a sensible manner was actually a little laborious.  I thought the spacing you came up with for the objectives was very good, worked perfectly to make sure they were pretty spread around, even thought the players were given some choice.  Generally speaking, I always prefer things to be less random, so having each player have a 3,2, and a 1, would be both fair and less pina to randomize. 

I....did not notice that heavies and FA were worth double victory points in the appropriate mission.  Hrmm.  I didn't lose any of either, but it theoretically could have gotten me 2 more pts against Erich turn 2.  (but probably not enough difference).  Good thing I was 3 pts behind Jared.  :)

The victory pts tended to not to have huge swings, I'd actually probably just count destroyed Heavy and FA as extra bonus pts in those missions.  I know I preach zero-sum but a few bonus pts here an there are fine. 
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: PhoenixFire on April 01, 2013, 07:43:02 PM
the point value objectives were awesome. opened up new strategic planning instead of the old 'get as many objectives as possible' now you could sit on 2 and win by points.

i still think the most fair way to do it is each side gets an equal number of points. the randomness of one side possibly getting the 4 and two 3s makes his oppenent have no choice but to charge in
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament - 3/30/2013
Post by: mchlwllms on April 01, 2013, 08:50:11 PM
Besides my complaining about Hammer and Anvil, I liked the missions. Hammer and Anvil was also a lot of fun, but I got lucky to have an end table which made it really nice.