Battleground Games Forum
Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: PhoenixFire on February 28, 2013, 10:32:44 AM
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As keith suggest i moved all this from the other thread so we don't jack the tournament thread
Im just curious as to why people can't use 40k approved FW units. Excluding titans and superheavys most FW stuff is pretty balanced (pts to power wise). The ”40k approved” stuff isn't overpowered or broken. The fill the gaps for some armies. Not to mention it could help balance the older codexes to the newer ones. Not to mention that players might be able to stand up to and possibly beat those super cheesy net-lists that the WAAC players love so much.
Just curious . Im not trolling.
Im just curious as to why people can't use 40k approved FW units.
Because stores that encourage people to spend money elsewhere rarely stay open. :)
Im just curious as to why people can't use 40k approved FW units.
Because stores that encourage people to spend money elsewhere rarely stay open. :)
I think it's probably a lot more than most people would initially consider.
I think it's probably a lot more than most people would initially consider.
I doubt it. I mean, I know for me, you would get a lot more money out of me RE: Eldar if I could take FW stuff. Otherwise I am not doing the army. I haven't done a different one because I am not doing that either.
How many FW armies are exclusively made from FW models? Hardly any. Which means they have to buy regular GW stuff, or adding to an army that most people here would have bought here.
There are two situations, people who buy a splash model to supplement their force(IE most people), and people who are going to spend the money to make a mainly FW model army(Older gamer with enough money to do so). The first situation isn't a problem, shit, it might even sell more GW stuff for you because the local meta will change.
Why stop at Forgeworld chase? Why not ban the Sporepod that Bill or I bought for our Tyranid army since GW doesn't offer one. Make it so the only legal sporepod is based on a space marine drop pod so I could possibly buy it here. I use alternative models in my Fantasy armies(much easier to do than 40k), things that are not availible for sale at BG, should they be banned?
Seriously, the people who are going to buy/use FW are typically gamers who are heavily invested in the game. People who are heavily invested in the game, have a strong interest in BG doing well as it is the healthiest game store within like 3 hours, and constantly runs the best events.
Most of us already buy through you despite easy opportunity to buy them cheaper on the internet.
Shit, if it would help I would buy FW through you AND pay you shipping (even though larger orders are often shipped for free), so the store makes a little. Do you have to follow suggested retail for FW? I would gladly buy a FW item/book that is in the store and a 20$ "Soda" if that is what it takes.
Perhaps we should make this a separate discussion?
That wraithlord farseer guy makes and eldar army, man. I would totally play an eldar army just for wraithlords and bikes.
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Personally i use Forgeworld models for the look and not the rules.
I use all contemptor dreads because IMO they are far cooler looking and if anything it's a strategic disadvantage to me because they are 2 inches taller and harder to get cover.
I also recently picked up some hersery marines because of the look of them with the intention of making them BA Sternguard. However now i'm stuck with do i buy more to make death company and keep the theme? Or use standard GW troops and while far cheaper would mess up the look.
As far as rules and units, at the last doubles i saw probably half a dozen or more FW units (assault ram, breaching drill, Dark Eldar aircraft carrier, etc)
You have things like the contemptor dreads that have cool rules and new weapon options that IMO aren't game breaking or overpowerd. You also have various tactical options in vehicles like the Landraider variant that can carry 25 troops, or land raider with multimeltas and a tunderfire cannon, etc, etc.
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I missed the move.. but cleaned up after myself :)
I think it's probably a lot more than most people would initially consider.
I may be inclined to disagree here Chase, consider an Elysian force, the number of Valks that go into the army is not something your average bear will buy.
I'd also suggest that many would buy the book and "Some of the resin" to flesh out the army while converting and using more traditional GW materials for the stock pieces. Not everyone will be able to buy Squads of resin troops enmasse, especially the 15 year old you mentioned in the painting thread.
Just my two cents, ultimately I think having FW available for tournament play would help the hobby in general...
Cheers,
Alan
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I'm not really a fan of droppods you can assault out of the turn you arrive or manticore batteries. A lot of armies can access these things through the allies matrix, but it does force you to buy outside of your main force to stay competitive if your goal was to try and win. I think it may really screw over tyranids, not sure what non-apoc stuff they really have access to from FW.
I don't like that there's a huge paywall behind access to the rules for each of these units as well, and most people use them with grainy 3rd gen scans they downloaded off the internet. So you're playing against stuff you don't know the rules for that may interact clunky with the main rules now (aren't most FW things geared for 4th?) Which could make it take longer to resolve issues.
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I honestly near-zero financial effect on BG for allowing FW.
I have A TON of FW stuff, let me list it out for you:
- Shas'O Rymr. Most commonly used as Farsight or generic Shas'O. No real game effect.
- 1 FW broadside. No game effect
- 1 FW crisis suit, no game effect
- 2 FW Tau Tetras. These definitely have their own rules, and no apprpriate proxy, so are not much used
- 27,000 FW doors, guns, and other fancy heraldry for GK vehicles. No game effect
- Several FW tank gunners (when GKs were all metal, is was the only real way to get one)
- A landspeeder converted with said GK gunners so I could have a GK Lanspeeder (it's like a $90 land speeder, when they were like $30
- The taros campaign book
- One venerable GK dreadnought with the chest drilled out and replaced with a GK gunner.
- 2 complete GK dreadnoughts.
I'll not that at one point, back when in the daemonhunter days, FW were the only real way to get a GK looking force without a lot extensive converting.
The point is, I may have spent like, $800-$1000 on FW, easy, but of all that, only 1 HQ model and the 2 tetras have any game effect, and the HQ is usually used to represent something else, anyway.
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If FW was allowed at Tournaments I would definitely throw my hat into those rings more.
I personally know that my FW purchases, while come from the same bank account as stuff I buy from BG, don't overshadow my BG purchases.
Could it affect other people who shop at BG? Possibly? I wouldn't discount Chase's fears on that as he is the businessman, I'm the gamer/customer who is ignorant of his worries outside of the simple "pay where you play attitude" I try to have.
Now, given GW's current attitude, I will need any incentive to purchase GW I can get. So if BG starts allowing FW (while being the same company, aren't dicks)in tournaments, I will have the incentive to keep buying GW to use the FW kits.
The double's tournament is the only reason I've been eyeing a Stormtalon and Stormraven for my Carcharodons which require FW rules to function properly.
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I'm not really a fan of droppods you can assault out of the turn you arrive or manticore batteries. A lot of armies can access these things through the allies matrix, but it does force you to buy outside of your main force to stay competitive if your goal was to try and win. I think it may really screw over tyranids, not sure what non-apoc stuff they really have access to from FW.
I don't like that there's a huge paywall behind access to the rules for each of these units as well, and most people use them with grainy 3rd gen scans they downloaded off the internet. So you're playing against stuff you don't know the rules for that may interact clunky with the main rules now (aren't most FW things geared for 4th?) Which could make it take longer to resolve issues.
it would certainly make more work for BG (mostly Sam) in making sure the lists are legal and hand checking everyones FW datasheets to ensure they have the most current legal one. If you look at this list it is the allowable Forgeworld units from last years Adepticon. It conveniently shows where to find the most current rules for each entry (because Apoc and FW have sooo many books and updates) which armies can use it, and which slot it takes up.
It's also interesting that certain units can be taken for the Team Tournament, the Gladiator Tournament, and the "Friendly" tournament, not all entries are usable for all tournaments. It also looks like none of them are legal for the Adepticon GT.
http://www.adepticon.org/12rules/201240KIAApoc.pdf
I think forgeworld units would be a great dash of spice to team tournaments and other "fun" tournaments. As far as the normal tournaments however, they often serve as practice for people attending Nova, Adepticon, Templecon, etc and since FW units aren't legal at those GTs (to the best of my knowledge) running into FW stuff at BG they won't see at the big tournaments won't really give them the practice they need.
just my 2cts
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One suggestion would be to try out FW armies/units at an Abington BG "non qualifying" singles tournament and see how it works out. Maybe then it can be phased into the regular tournament scene if the impact isn't what we feared.
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Just to be clear, I think the discussion should follow this path.
1) figure out how much buying FW hurts BG financially, and if there are solutions to this problem. Depending on how much if any of a financial hit BG would take by regularly or semi regularly allowing FW models/rules. This seems to be the first concern on Chase's mind when contemplating allowing FW, so it should be the first one we address.
2) Availibility/balance/increased workload. Sure, maybe this means that running events that allow FW is more work, maybe it means that not 100% of FW is allowed as some of it is "unbalanced" (like regular 40k is all good in that regard ::) ). It doesn't mean that EVERY event has to allow FW, but having some reliance on it being done many times a year would be incentive. I am not going to make a FW Eldar army to play in one doubles event per year. Sorry. Not going to happen. but if there were 3-5 events a year, or leagues that allowed it(that i acutally had time for), I would. Also, I certainly wouldn't mind taking an event off to help run an event from time to time. I wouldn't want to put this all on Chase/Sam.
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As to point 1.
A) Many gamers come to BG from several hours away, for example, Alex Fennel, Sean Nayden, Ragnar Arneson, and plenty of people I don't know. These people probably buy most of their product from their local store, or at least not at BG. Should they be banned for not buying their armies at BG? Obviously not, no one is suggesting this.
B) Let's say I have an army made up of entirely FW models(say deathcorp). In BG events I run them as standard IG as is legal in any/every event over the last 2 years(at least). Should this army be banned because I bought FW models and therefore contributed nothing to BG? Obviously not, no one is suggesting this.
C) Let's say I bought my entire army from the warstore online and ebay. Should I be banned from BG events for not contributing to their sales? Obviously not, no one is suggesting this.
D) Let's say I am starting an eldar FW army. This will result in 70-80% of my army being bought from BG, and the remainder from FW. CANNOT USE, MAYBE ONCE A YEAR.
Why is D worse than A, B, or C? BG already depends on and trusts its community to pay where they play and support the stores. I don't see how allowing FW in ~50% of events would change this relationship in the slightest. I am not going to stop supporting BG regardless of the decision that is ultimately made.
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Just to be clear, I think the discussion should follow this path.
1) figure out how much buying FW hurts BG financially, and if there are solutions to this problem. Depending on how much if any of a financial hit BG would take by regularly or semi regularly allowing FW models/rules. This seems to be the first concern on Chase's mind when contemplating allowing FW, so it should be the first one we address.
2) Availibility/balance/increased workload. Sure, maybe this means that running events that allow FW is more work, maybe it means that not 100% of FW is allowed as some of it is "unbalanced" (like regular 40k is all good in that regard ::) ). It doesn't mean that EVERY event has to allow FW, but having some reliance on it being done many times a year would be incentive. I am not going to make a FW Eldar army to play in one doubles event per year. Sorry. Not going to happen. but if there were 3-5 events a year, or leagues that allowed it(that i acutally had time for), I would. Also, I certainly wouldn't mind taking an event off to help run an event from time to time. I wouldn't want to put this all on Chase/Sam.
#1: i'm honestly not sure if there is any... people who like the look of Forgeworld are going to buy it if BGs tournaments allow it or not. Will BG allowing Forgeworld at tournaments cause people to buy more stuff from Forgeworld? Perhaps, but it would likely be stuff that GW has no equivalent for anyway and therefore not affecting BG sales.
#2a: More work for Sam and Chase? absolutely, like i said earlier it will require Sam doing even more thorough checking of lists and having to check hard copies of datasheets to make sure they are the most current legal ones.
#2b: Balance? well as Keith pointed out 40k isn't perfectly balanced as is. Not to mention a lot of the forgeworld "overpowered" units took a hit in 6th edition with the vehicle nerfs. I think this would require some in-depth research using the Adepticon Forgeworld legal list as a starting point.
I'm not saying BG should look at allowing forgeworld at every event because i think Forgeworld should be the exception, not the rule.
However it would be nice to see more "exceptions" then the once a year doubles and Megabattle
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Most of us already buy through you despite easy opportunity to buy them cheaper on the internet.
This.
Im just curious as to why people can't use 40k approved FW units. Excluding titans and superheavys most FW stuff is pretty balanced (pts to power wise). The ”40k approved” stuff isn't overpowered or broken. The fill the gaps for some armies. Not to mention it could help balance the older codexes to the newer ones. Not to mention that players might be able to stand up to and possibly beat those super cheesy net-lists that the WAAC players love so much.
Just curious . Im not trolling.
These are all very accurate and very valid points that many people(including myself) have made in the past. The forgeworld debate always resurfaces, and I believe will eventually will be put in place.. its just too popular to continue banning. Have separate, non-titan tournaments if thats what it takes to start..
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My renegade guard is a Forgeworld army. I spent more on it at BG than with Forgeworld. Those are purchases I normally would not have made had the FW models not inspired me.
Forgeworld offers an incentive to make more purchases of regular, BG stocked GW kits.
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Forgeworld offers an incentive to make more purchases of regular, BG stocked GW kits.
Forgeworld offers incentive for people to start entire armies that they wouldn't normally play. One very popular one is Eldar Corsairs and Wraithseers, both in which still contain like 90% regular GW Battleground models anyways.
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Yeah I think there's something to that... I would seriously consider starting an Ork army if I knew I would get to play with Grot Tanks.
And "but you CAN - in casual play!" isn't a perfect answer here. I don't have a ton of time to play, I would say half of the games I play are in tournaments, when I'm able to negotiate a day off :) And these are also where I meet people, etc.... not being able to play with a model in a tournament to me pretty much means I will never play with it (since much of the other games are trying to squeeze in a little practice for said tournaments)
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No offence to anyone, but why are you hounding chase so much for FW army and list to be legal just after they experimented letting be allowed in the doubles? Most of you posting here are loyal BG goers and know if its the stores best interest then you will see more FW allowed in events.
You also should see the difficulty they will have on deciding this. Let alone some of the FW rules are not bad, what stops a person from bring something cheesy and playing a new kid to the game, maybe 1st tornment and ends up getting stomped? What it means is BG loses a customer. You can argue the point that its very unlikely to happen, but from BG possition they have to make sure what they allow is something that wont drive away new customers or people who have small wallets,
So give chase and his crew some time to work out on what THEY want to do for their tornaments
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No offence to anyone, but why are you hounding chase so much for FW army and list to be legal just after they experimented letting be allowed in the doubles? Most of you posting here are loyal BG goers and know if its the stores best interest then you will see more FW allowed in events.
You also should see the difficulty they will have on deciding this. Let alone some of the FW rules are not bad, what stops a person from bring something cheesy and playing a new kid to the game, maybe 1st tornment and ends up getting stomped? What it means is BG loses a customer. You can argue the point that its very unlikely to happen, but from BG possition they have to make sure what they allow is something that wont drive away new customers or people who have small wallets,
So give chase and his crew some time to work out on what THEY want to do for their tornaments
They've had plenty of time(years), and thus far have mostly denied FW lists from being legal. I don't see why we cant discuss one of the major barriers to allowing them more often.
If chase wants to, he can say no FW, and not give a reason. He gave one, so why not discuss it's validity. If we can discuss it, and show that a large percentage of the community wants it, maybe the status quo will change. Chase is very free with his posts, if he feels like we are ganging up on him or 'hounding' him, he will let us know.
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You also should see the difficulty they will have on deciding this. Let alone some of the FW rules are not bad, what stops a person from bring something cheesy and playing a new kid to the game, maybe 1st tornment and ends up getting stomped?
dude that doesn't make any difference.. I get my ass stomped by regular lists lol
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My point with the earlier FW I own was this: I'm using most of those models anyway, since I'm using them as regular 40k models (the majority is actually doors and whatnot). So for it to have a financial effect, Chase would basically have to say "No FW models allowed" not "no FW rules allowed". For various reasons, I don't think that would really fly and I doubt Chase would consider doing so.
I can lay out other realities of the situation -- my only significant contribution to BG is through tournament entry fees, so~ about $20 a month. I sometimes buy paint and primer (GW primer is expensive but really good) -- I'd probably buy more if BG carried decent paintbrushes that weren't GWs (ripoff cost). It's also be great if they carried Vallejo or Reaper paints.
I'm an "established gamer", I already have most of the models I need. I spend a $300 when GK came out, mostly because my halberd carrying power armor GK weren't suitable to be GKSS (well played, GW), and, y'know, Stormraven and Dreadknight. I'll probably spend another $200 when Tau comes out, probably'll want to buy the rumored "uber-suit" and maybe new Crisis -- but I have A LOT of Tau models laying around, I may not buy very much.
The biggest chance for me to actually randomly spend large amounts of money would be if I say, randomly decided to build a khorne demon army....which I may not just because people tend accuse of jumping on the latest band-wagon-- despite the fact that I have never done that, not once.
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I just want to put my 2 cents in:
I'm a young kid with a job who pays for his own minis, paints, glue, and entry fees (from a job, not a allowance). I think FW models are badass, & if I had the money, I would do a Drop Troop army or a Eldar Air Force or Titan army. I don't have any problem with playing ageist FW units/ armies, for example: In the past doubles we got stomped pretty bad by a Dreadknight, but I still had fun. I am looking forward to buying some FW units and books in the future, and hope Chase will allow them in more tourneys, but if that wish does not come true, I 100% understand,
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The biggest chance for me to actually randomly spend large amounts of money would be if I say, randomly decided to build a khorne demon army....which I may not just because people tend accuse of jumping on the latest band-wagon-- despite the fact that I have never done that, not once.
People say that about everyone.
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The biggest chance for me to actually randomly spend large amounts of money would be if I say, randomly decided to build a khorne demon army....which I may not just because people tend accuse of jumping on the latest band-wagon-- despite the fact that I have never done that, not once.
People say that about everyone.
Well, that's reassuring.
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I like this thread. It has offered some perspective.
It has been my plan, since Abington has the space to host events, to experiment more and more with FW. You can expect to see the events there incorporate FW more and more.
One thing that I think should be discussed is the incentive that allowing FW offers a person to NOT start a new army either ever, or for an extended amount of time. How much longer does the life of an army last when you're not only limited by mixing and matching codex units to form army lists, but also the FW options for your army?
I really, truly want people to love the army or armies they have. I also want them to start new armies as often as possible. I am not sure the widespread allowance of FW at our events helps this more than it hurts it, although based on what people here are saying it might be closer than I first thought.
If it's fair to assume people start new armies because they are bored or mostly "done" experimenting with their current choice (which may or may not be true), does allowing FW extend or eliminate the time in between army 1 and army 2?
Does it end a players incentive to buy, say, 4 boxes of Thunderwolves or Bloodcrushers just so they can try something crazy at an event? (in favor of spending the extra 150 on something cool from FW) A bad example, but it happens.
Does the new, younger player save up for something awesome from FW instead of buying 2-3 more boxes of stuff, which represents 2-3 months worth of his spending?
Do people start buying FW models primarily because they're veteran gamers who have explored the hobby to the extent that they see fit? Will these people buy FW models anyway? Is BG worried about this?
How much do people actually consider their spending when new army books come along? Do people think about and consider the investment or do they just do what they want? If they do consider it, would they also consider investing X hundred dollars in the FW stuff they've been eyeing instead of the new army book now that they know they can use it in all / some / most of BG games and events?
How do people / players weight their "wants" and how does allowing FW factor in to that? If a player skips out on the Chaos Demon release because he'd prefer to pick up 2-3 models for FW instead, that hurts quite a bit long term. (And comes back to the delaying of a new army due to FW. Same point really.)
These are just some of the easier points to communicate via text.
If we are assuming that the allowance of FW is primarily based on the impact it'll have on sales at both BG locations in the present and near future the discussion boils down to:
Are there more players that would be incentivised to buy GW models from BG by the allowance of FW than there would be players that use FW to supplement exsisting armies / ideas, therefore delaying or totally eliminating GW purchases into the future?
It is my belief that the allowance of FW in all /many events increases the "life" of an army a considerable amount. Secondarily, it's likely to increase FW awareness and FW "culture" in and around the stores (Plainville, mainly). I believe that both of these things are less than ideal for the business. This is also to say nothing for the buying habits / trends in the long term (years), and how I believe the allowance of FW to adversely effect that.
It would be fantastic to be convinced that I am wrong and that these are not legitimate concerns. Either way I think players can expect to see more BG events that do allow some or all FW models than we've ever done before. I'm a lot less against FW now than I was 1 year ago. Lots of what's going on here is dramatized for effect, although the points are probably not less valid.
I'm interested in how many events out there allow FW and are NOT put on by clubs. I feel like every time I see an event that allows FW it is not put on buy a store (a for profit business). I suspect there's a reason for that.
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(http://www.warlockzone.com/wp-content/uploads/warhammer%2040k%20demotivational%20posters.jpg)
dont care where you them but these WILL always be legal in my book
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Do people start buying FW models primarily because they're veteran gamers who have explored the hobby to the extent that they see fit? Will these people buy FW models anyway?
This, mostly, I think.
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I think it is highly important to distinguish FW rules from FW models.
Case in point the last FW legal doubles I played in, I wanted to use Kroot riders.
I am not paying over £100 for 3 models.
I went to bg and bought stuff from the Fantasy line to proxy.
Week later when I was told that wasn't legal I went and bought a piranha at bg to convert to a tetra.
Again $30 for 1 resin model verses $20 without s&h I'm paying 20 as I get to convert it.
Bg gets paid I get a rules set to help a flagging army.
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I defer to Chase, since he sees the real actual not-made-up numbers.
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I defer to Chase, since he sees the real actual not-made-up numbers.
??? ?!?
1) Who wasn't deferring to Chase?
2) Who made up numbers?
3) I don't know the numbers, but I know the sets of data Chase could have. I'm don't think any of those numbers really predict the answer to "If I allow N more FW rules, I will see +/- X reg GW sales".
We're all just trying to help guess an answer. (with, y'know, minor lobbying thrown in) The only real way to KNOW would be to try it, of course. My guess is that the delta would be insignificant, the only real effect being to make some die-hards happy. (I'm probably not actually one of those die-hards. Well, maybe, just barely)
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I won't bang my head against this topic, too. There is no such thing as Forge World trickle-down.
My only concern is if players refuse to play in tournaments in which FW is not allowed. Will anyone flat-out refuse to play without FW?
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My only concern is if players refuse to play in tournaments in which FW is not allowed. Will anyone flat-out refuse to play without FW?
Yes there are, and its already happening, allow FW and see people who are not often seen in tournaments showing up more often.
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Yes there are, and its already happening, allow FW and see people who are not often seen in tournaments showing up more often.
How many people do you know of who are refusing to play?
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Alan that can also be true about the reverse. Add in FW and see people who usually go to tournies not show up. Its a double edged sword for sure and ill back up Chase however he decides to do it.
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Alan that can also be true about the reverse. Add in FW and see people who usually go to tournies not show up. Its a double edged sword for sure and ill back up Chase however he decides to do it.
Oh I agree, if BG decides no, then it's no, I won't be thrilled but will respect it.
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Yes there are, and its already happening, allow FW and see people who are not often seen in tournaments showing up more often.
How many people do you know of who are refusing to play?
Read back, Trooper has said he'd play in these things more,I can say the same for myself too, others, ill leave to speak for themselves if they frequent the boards.....
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Alan that can also be true about the reverse.
I dunno, the doubles tournament seemed to have all the competitive types show up, and it seemed a pretty full house. Notably not a lot of FW actually showed up, though.
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My only concern is if players refuse to play in tournaments in which FW is not allowed. Will anyone flat-out refuse to play without FW?
Me.
I suppose it's a bit more complicated than just that but that is a big part of it.
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I like this thread. It has offered some perspective.
It has been my plan, since Abington has the space to host events, to experiment more and more with FW. You can expect to see the events there incorporate FW more and more.
One thing that I think should be discussed is the incentive that allowing FW offers a person to NOT start a new army either ever, or for an extended amount of time. How much longer does the life of an army last when you're not only limited by mixing and matching codex units to form army lists, but also the FW options for your army?
I really, truly want people to love the army or armies they have. I also want them to start new armies as often as possible. I am not sure the widespread allowance of FW at our events helps this more than it hurts it, although based on what people here are saying it might be closer than I first thought.
If it's fair to assume people start new armies because they are bored or mostly "done" experimenting with their current choice (which may or may not be true), does allowing FW extend or eliminate the time in between army 1 and army 2?
Does it end a players incentive to buy, say, 4 boxes of Thunderwolves or Bloodcrushers just so they can try something crazy at an event? (in favor of spending the extra 150 on something cool from FW) A bad example, but it happens.
Does the new, younger player save up for something awesome from FW instead of buying 2-3 more boxes of stuff, which represents 2-3 months worth of his spending?
Do people start buying FW models primarily because they're veteran gamers who have explored the hobby to the extent that they see fit? Will these people buy FW models anyway? Is BG worried about this?
How much do people actually consider their spending when new army books come along? Do people think about and consider the investment or do they just do what they want? If they do consider it, would they also consider investing X hundred dollars in the FW stuff they've been eyeing instead of the new army book now that they know they can use it in all / some / most of BG games and events?
How do people / players weight their "wants" and how does allowing FW factor in to that? If a player skips out on the Chaos Demon release because he'd prefer to pick up 2-3 models for FW instead, that hurts quite a bit long term. (And comes back to the delaying of a new army due to FW. Same point really.)
These are just some of the easier points to communicate via text.
If we are assuming that the allowance of FW is primarily based on the impact it'll have on sales at both BG locations in the present and near future the discussion boils down to:
Are there more players that would be incentivised to buy GW models from BG by the allowance of FW than there would be players that use FW to supplement exsisting armies / ideas, therefore delaying or totally eliminating GW purchases into the future?
It is my belief that the allowance of FW in all /many events increases the "life" of an army a considerable amount. Secondarily, it's likely to increase FW awareness and FW "culture" in and around the stores (Plainville, mainly). I believe that both of these things are less than ideal for the business. This is also to say nothing for the buying habits / trends in the long term (years), and how I believe the allowance of FW to adversely effect that.
It would be fantastic to be convinced that I am wrong and that these are not legitimate concerns. Either way I think players can expect to see more BG events that do allow some or all FW models than we've ever done before. I'm a lot less against FW now than I was 1 year ago. Lots of what's going on here is dramatized for effect, although the points are probably not less valid.
I'm interested in how many events out there allow FW and are NOT put on by clubs. I feel like every time I see an event that allows FW it is not put on buy a store (a for profit business). I suspect there's a reason for that.
I suggested we tacked the monetary issue first because it seems more important.
My opinion is that anything that gets or keeps people more "into" the game, is good for business. Like magic, if there are kids who buy most of their cards on ebay, but make awesome decks that are hard to beat, doesn't that incentivize the rest to make better decks to take him down. Wouldn't that increase BG sales?
I personally buy some models on ebay if they are particularly expensive/overcosted. Or if I go to a solid event at another store from time to time, if I need something I will buy it there too. But I spend most of my gaming money at BG. This percentage probably won't change. I will always likely get 70-80% of my stuff from BG, what might change is the ebay/other store stuff.
I've already suggested that I would pay more for FW through the store. Like slapping a 20$ on top of the order. I mean, when you buy a unit of bloodcrushers, don't you make around that per box?
Here is the point, I am already paying more than I have to in order to support the store. I do this because I want to, I do this because it is good for our local community, and for a store I like to stay in business and run events I want to play in. Why do you think a large percentage of this wouldn't still do this just because the vendor changes to FW? If the main barrier is simply because BG makes no money off them, then ban all models from vendors you don't carry.
You make money due to the customers in the community. Case and point. Troy recently wanted some mantic models. He came to you to ask if you could get them for him. He didn't have to do that.
BG has always done well because You and Derek have always been open and honest and fair with all of us, and we appreciate it greatly.
I'll be open and honest with you. I literally NEVER make impulse buys. I know what I want typically for weeks before I purchase them. I always have models in mind to purchase if I win/place in an event, and I will wait to see if I do(and then often buy it anyways if I don't place). Everything is planned out and I have no incentive other than supporting you guys to ever buy anything at BG, but that is enough of a reason for me.
Also, many FW models still require base GW models to be purchased also as a base for the addons.
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If the only reason people want to use FW models in tournaments is that they like how they look and the "balance" they provide to their already existing army, and not that they are overpowered or provide a strategic edge ("surprise! Bet ya didn't know this even existed...") then I am fine with allowing painted FW models.
Tournaments are a time constrained environment that takes away player-choice in their opponent. Normally if I think someone has just jumped on a band-wagon and is trying to field a bunch of unpainted resin, or worse, GW-count-as-FW models I can just walk away and avoid the less-than-fun game that lies ahead.
When playing someone I know just wants to use a given FW model or two because they are cool we have plenty of time to review the rules for the models I'm unfamiliar with.
Both of those things are made much more difficult in a tournament environment, and while I definitely want to win, I ALSO want to have fun.
There already 15 armies with unique rules I am trying to learn and keep track off, adding FW just makes things even crazier. This does not even consider the fact that Chase/Sam or whoever ends up checking lists now has to have access to FW books and rules to sign off on them as both being approved, having no FAQ-updates, and accurately pointed... it is just a LOT of extra work that we, as players in an event, do not have to deal with.
At the end of the day, subtle things that only inconvenience people who are bandwagon-jumping seem an appropriate balance to allowing FW. If someone wants to use FW models fine, but the models should be painted and the player should have the appropriate rulebook (NOT a printout they stole from a pdf online) on hand to allow their opponent to familiarize themselves with the rules for their models.
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How many Eldar Guardian boxes does GW sell? Probably not very many, they are the worst unit in all 40k game and have been for a long time. But now let's say you allow a FW Eldar Cosair list.. you would then probably sell A LOT of Eldar Guardian box sets.
The confusion is FW models vs FW rules, and many hardcore gamers(like myself) care more about good rules. With that ruleset you literally turn a bad selling GW model into a really popular one, not to mention additional weapon sprue purchases that the Corsairs require. The Corsairs are literally Guardians with better weapons/upgrades... same model. This is one of many examples, but a good one.
BG makes money if someone A) Starts a new army, or B) Expands on an existing army. A lot of people have no disire to start a new army, but also refuse to expand on an army with out of date rules. It doesn't matter if $200 is spent on new Daemons models or 8 year old Guardians, its still a business transaction just different preferance for the customer.
Even if BG banned FW models, but allowed FW rules it would not only have almost no negative financial impact on BG, it may even sell out their older models. I'm not advocating either way as Chase has some good points too, but I feel more specific examples are required so non players can gain better perspective.
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Everyone I know who has a large collection of Forgeworld makes regular purchases at BG. They have for years.
Everyone I know who buys primarily online or trades for things has little to no Forgeworld.
This is pretty anecdotal, so I'm not drawing any conclusions. It is pretty interesting, though.
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If the only reason people want to use FW models in tournaments is that they like how they look and the "balance" they provide to their already existing army, and not that they are overpowered or provide a strategic edge ("surprise! Bet ya didn't know this even existed...") then I am fine with allowing painted FW models.
No other models are required to be painted, so why the double standard?
Tournaments are a time constrained environment that takes away player-choice in their opponent. Normally if I think someone has just jumped on a band-wagon and is trying to field a bunch of unpainted resin, or worse, GW-count-as-FW models I can just walk away and avoid the less-than-fun game that lies ahead.
When playing someone I know just wants to use a given FW model or two because they are cool we have plenty of time to review the rules for the models I'm unfamiliar with.
No one is saying use GW as FW, so stop pretending that would be allowed. It is generally a good idea to go over obscure stuff about your codex with your opponent anyways, unless you know they know it already. I always explain how the Doom of Malan'ti works to my opponents. I don't see doing it for 2 models is that crazy.
Both of those things are made much more difficult in a tournament environment, and while I definitely want to win, I ALSO want to have fun.
You always get 15 minutes during set up. You are allowed to talk about army lists during this time. You are free to trash your opponents paint score in the sheet provided. But since BG requires NO models to be painted, holding FW to a different standard because it offends you to see resin unpainted as opposed to plastics or metals is silly and childish.
There already 15 armies with unique rules I am trying to learn and keep track off, adding FW just makes things even crazier. This does not even consider the fact that Chase/Sam or whoever ends up checking lists now has to have access to FW books and rules to sign off on them as both being approved, having no FAQ-updates, and accurately pointed... it is just a LOT of extra work that we, as players in an event, do not have to deal with.
You have 15 minutes of set up time to talk about it, and a 2 hour game. Also there is a lunch break and a break between the 2nd and 3rd rounds if you are concerned about playing models you don't know or understand. Typically it is ALWAYS required for people playing FW at events to have the rules present.
At the end of the day, subtle things that only inconvenience people who are bandwagon-jumping seem an appropriate balance to allowing FW. If someone wants to use FW models fine, but the models should be painted and the player should have the appropriate rulebook (NOT a printout they stole from a pdf online) on hand to allow their opponent to familiarize themselves with the rules for their models.
Of course they should have the rule book and the actual model. No one is arguing against this. Why should anti-bandwagon be limited to FW? Any new army book or book that benefits from a recent FAQ change should have to be fully painted forces to participate in any event you go to.... in your basement.
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I am just going to troll this a bit and see where the discussion goes. My opinion is I want to use FW stuff since I just got the stuff for the Minotaur chapter which is just a pair of special characters that make a generic marine army into Minotaurs. Do I have to use em? no would be nice though. if i cant use those characters I can simply use regular marine captain and chaplain as a substitute. The only real ground breaking thing they give me is Hatred for Marines which is rather sick. Other than that nothing special. As I said im just going to troll this one and read others thoughts cause im curious. :)
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Will anyone flat-out refuse to play without FW?
I believe the term is "rage quit"
But really, I will probably play in most Abington events, just convenience. But if (for example) Plainville tourneys started allowing FW, I would be more inclined to make it down there. This has nothing to do with the stores (other than distance) but I feel that FW was allowed more, more people would show up. Just my opinion.
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Keith's suggestions to charge a small premium on tournament fees and/or the models themselves is an interesting suggestion, part of which I've considered. I wanted to avoid getting into that sort of discussion on the boards, which is why I didn't address it. Both of them would require a small talk.
My opinion is that anything that gets or keeps people more "into" the game, is good for business.
That's simply a fact and should not be ignored in this discussion.
Everyone I know who has a large collection of Forgeworld makes regular purchases at BG. They have for years.
Everyone I know who buys primarily online or trades for things has little to no Forgeworld.
This is pretty anecdotal, so I'm not drawing any conclusions. It is pretty interesting, though.
This is an interesting observation.
The amount of extra work that is involved with allowing FW stuff in our events should be ignored for purposes of this discussion. It's literally our job to execute whatever event we put together. List checking is handled by Sam. He doesn't seem to sweat it. Besides, working him harder than normal for a couple days a month is okay.
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If you allow FW then you would need to allow ALL 40k approved FW. Not just from 2 books. Has this been discussed?
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Haven't got to that point, but if / when we do my current thinking is that we'd allow at least all approved units.
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Clan Rocksmacker is happy. Bring on the Bran Redmaw proxy!! Oh the possibilities...
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If you allow FW then you would need to allow ALL 40k approved FW. Not just from 2 books. Has this been discussed?
Why? I certainly don't see that as true.
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In your own words Keith "why thedouble standard?" we dont limit standard GW codexes why limit the 40k approved FW ones?
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Of course they should have the rule book and the actual model. No one is arguing against this.
No one is arguing for it either. You have made a slew of assumptions on how things would be implemented and are making broad statements based on them when frankly the discussion is (currently) as simple as "Allow forgeworld, yes/no? Why?"
This is even more obvious from your last post... As Grimwulfe noted why would you only allow some FW models and not all 40k approved models from every book?
We use plenty of FW models to count as GW models right now. Why is it shocking that someone may want to do the reverse when FW is allowed?
Sure, explaining what one or two models do is trivial, but why is someone suddenly only allowed to bring 2 FW models? What if I have 6? What if my opponent also has 6? What if they are playing an entirely FW approved list? Wanting to not alienate players has come up multiple times, but how long will it take you to explain every unit in your army to someone who is still relatively new to the game?
Playing Sisters, I can tell you for a FACT that it can take 5 minutes to go over all of my army's special rules, each unit's act of faith, and provide documentation when someone says "Celestine cannot die? You are joking... show me. Wait, your faith roll is sometimes a 4 and sometimes a 3? What?" Adding in FW explanations, now our deployment time has been cut in half or more. Sure, that is a "perfect storm" scenario, but certainly possible.
Be less dismissive of the possibility that events may play out differently than how you have assumed, or at the very least share your laundry list of "obvious things" that are required for FW allowance to work and actually contribute some depth to the discussion.
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In your own words Keith "why thedouble standard?" we dont limit standard GW codexes why limit the 40k approved FW ones?
There are several outdated FW books. Basically anything you want should be banned.
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No one is arguing for it either. You have made a slew of assumptions on how things would be implemented and are making broad statements based on them when frankly the discussion is (currently) as simple as "Allow forgeworld, yes/no? Why?"
To this point we were mainly discussing interest and finacial repercussions for BG, the two most important issues. If we get over those hurdles, then we can discuss balance and other factors.
This is even more obvious from your last post... As Grimwulfe noted why would you only allow some FW models and not all 40k approved models from every book?
We use plenty of FW models to count as GW models right now. Why is it shocking that someone may want to do the reverse when FW is allowed?
Did I say that some FW should be banned? Or did I just suggest that "allowing FW" doesn't automatically mean "allowing all of FW". That would be the next step in the discussion once we pass the initial part.
Sure, some people might want to, some people might want to use cups as drop pods, but that doesn't mean cups are not legal to drink out of at BG.
Sure, explaining what one or two models do is trivial, but why is someone suddenly only allowed to bring 2 FW models? What if I have 6? What if my opponent also has 6? What if they are playing an entirely FW approved list? Wanting to not alienate players has come up multiple times, but how long will it take you to explain every unit in your army to someone who is still relatively new to the game?
If you are relatively new, odds are I will need to explain a bunch of shit to you anyways. If I am playing a FW list, you know it is legal because Sam/Chase checked it, and you can fucking read it any time you want during the game. Shit, my movement phase and deployment might be a good time. It isn't my fault if your reading comprehension is not good enough to look at stat lines and gear descriptions and figure out what they do. You can also ask me while I am deploying. Do you just always play people who aren't helpful? When I play you, I am going to beat you because I am better than you, not because I sneakily hid what my models could do.
Playing Sisters, I can tell you for a FACT that it can take 5 minutes to go over all of my army's special rules, each unit's act of faith, and provide documentation when someone says "Celestine cannot die? You are joking... show me. Wait, your faith roll is sometimes a 4 and sometimes a 3? What?" Adding in FW explanations, now our deployment time has been cut in half or more. Sure, that is a "perfect storm" scenario, but certainly possible.
Yeah, sisters don't have an actual codex, so it is not very availible BAN TEH SISTAHS!!!11!!ONE!
Be less dismissive of the possibility that events may play out differently than how you have assumed, or at the very least share your laundry list of "obvious things" that are required for FW allowance to work and actually contribute some depth to the discussion.
Have better informed opinions and I will be less dismissive of them. I have every confidence in the world that Chase/Sam/BG will ABSOLUTELY require actual FW models to play them, and ABSOLUTELY require the rules for said models to be present as well. It is a non issue. FW has been allowed at BG events in the past on limited occasions and that is always how it is gone. BG has megabattles that allow anything/everything, and that is still required.
Maybe instead of getting on my ass about it, you could actually ask the community or chase et al before you assume that people are going to be able to use toothpicks to create their special FW goodness.
I am very aware of what it takes to make FW work. If you read all of this discussion you'd realize that I started it, and, that I suggested we discuss chase's concerns about finacially damaging the store by allowing FW, as if BG is not comfortable for monetary reasons to allow FW regularly, none of the things you brought up mean shit.
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Off topic, but:
How many Eldar Guardian boxes does GW sell? Probably not very many, they are the worst unit in all 40k game and have been for a long time.
Pyrovore. Vespid. Just saying.
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Ok I am done trolling and reading,
Everyone I know who has a large collection of Forgeworld makes regular purchases at BG. They have for years.
Everyone I know who buys primarily online or trades for things has little to no Forgeworld.
This is pretty anecdotal, so I'm not drawing any conclusions. It is pretty interesting, though.
I think I am one of those people. I have no problems with people showing up with Forge World Lists.
On the matter of does it affect GW sales? I like to think not. I am starting a Badab War Chapter that has FW models and add-ons to give my models more cool details. Does it mean they should be banned? I certainly hope not. In my case and in others if you really have a problem with my Special Charecters that make my chapter what it is, I can easily make my own models of equal point cost and just use Vanilla rules.
I want to get away from the Vanilla rules of marines thats why I choose the Badab war Chapter that I did, that and the fact i did a good two days of research on the army on how to paint it and make it look spectacular which my prototype marine as im told does so I am putting it into gear to make 2000 pts of Minotaur Space Marines.
Now my making this Chapter means I am spending money at the store or already have for more non FW stuff. Only 2 models in my army have unique special FW rules. Am I going to buy more FW stuff to suppliment this army? Probably but stuff that is cosmetic and does not affect the game.
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In your own words Keith "why thedouble standard?" we dont limit standard GW codexes why limit the 40k approved FW ones?
There are several outdated FW books. Basically anything you want should be banned.
This.
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I think we should put it to a vote. lets see what the consensus shows. Is the inclusion of ”40k approved” FW rules even worth the effort?
Put me down for a Yes.
I think the rules are fair. As a fluffy player it would cool to use Fw units instead of spending those points(or way more) on an ally I don't want. I would be happy to submit a copy of all the pertinent info for review and even pay a little more to include fw units in a turni army.
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For better or worse, this will not be put to a vote.
Sorry if that sounds dickish, but it's just not the way we're going to handle it.
edit: Not all of the people in the community read or post on the boards. Also, as has been mentioned a few times in this thread, the primary point of discussion is how the allowance of FW stuff impacts BG's sales of GW models / supplies. I'm not about to deviate from something that seems to be working just fine based on a vote alone.
I am 100% behind giving the community what it wants and experimenting with various things. I hope that much is clear. It's just GOT to work well for the business.
Like, what happens if there's a vote on whether or not I should give out GW stuff for free? Probably won't end well for the business and at least a percentage of the gamers that frequent the stores, but it'd sure be sweet for a while (on your end) though....
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What if it was narrowed down to just 2-3 armies that are pure FW models, and lists that use one or 2 FW models that give the army unique special rules? this way you can study the few armies and what those charecters do.
Examples I see for pure FW armies: Death Corp of Kreig, Traitor Imperial Guard. Armies that use one or two models, Grey Knights, more specificly inquisitors, Charchordons space marines, Minotaur Space Marines. This way you can just forget the special FW toys.
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If we decide to make FW commonplace at our events, every army will have options available.
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Also, in case people missed it earlier the current plan is to offer more events that allow at least some FW models in the future.
The events in Abington will feature FW more prominently. Events we hold at either location that are at least somewhat intended to be "GT practice" will likely not allow FW rules / units.
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I am 100% behind giving the community what it wants and experimenting with various things. I hope that much is clear. It's just GOT to work well for the business.
Understood, completely, and I think once this has been review objectively the impact on the business will be clear to see, somewhere between minimal and positive. From the community perspective I've heard a lot of good points; I'm pleased the old, I can't afford their rule books has gone away (I certainly can't afford all the GW codexes at $50 a shot these days).
To the earlier comments on FW I believe what I want is FW rules, personally I want to play my Elysians; But so long as the models are appropriate, I don't see there's a problem playing with std IG miniatures rather than resin, who doesn't want Guard dropping out of the sky ! but forcing soemone to buy a PITA set of models at FW prices is not necessary, which should support BG.
Cheers,
Alan
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Also, in case people missed it earlier the current plan is to offer more events that allow at least some FW models in the future.
The events in Abington will feature FW more prominently. Events we hold at either location that are at least somewhat intended to be "GT practice" will likely not allow FW rules / units.
So it seems like a decision has been made; I'm curious then, will events in Abington work for your inivtationals?
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For better or worse, this will not be put to a vote.
Sorry if that sounds dickish, but it's just not the way we're going to handle it.
edit: Not all of the people in the community read or post on the boards. Also, as has been mentioned a few times in this thread, the primary point of discussion is how the allowance of FW stuff impacts BG's sales of GW models / supplies. I'm not about to deviate from something that seems to be working just fine based on a vote alone.
I am 100% behind giving the community what it wants and experimenting with various things. I hope that much is clear. It's just GOT to work well for the business.
Like, what happens if there's a vote on whether or not I should give out GW stuff for free? Probably won't end well for the business and at least a percentage of the gamers that frequent the stores, but it'd sure be sweet for a while (on your end) though....
Im sorry I didn't realize making customers happy was bad for business. I don't see how including a few additional rules and models will hurt BGs bottom line. Specially if im willing to pay additional money to play them.
im glad you are willing to try it out first,so thanks for that.
P.S.
The most dickish thing you said was the bit about voting for free stuff. Really???
Lol.
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For better or worse, this will not be put to a vote.
Sorry if that sounds dickish, but it's just not the way we're going to handle it.
edit: Not all of the people in the community read or post on the boards. Also, as has been mentioned a few times in this thread, the primary point of discussion is how the allowance of FW stuff impacts BG's sales of GW models / supplies. I'm not about to deviate from something that seems to be working just fine based on a vote alone.
I am 100% behind giving the community what it wants and experimenting with various things. I hope that much is clear. It's just GOT to work well for the business.
Like, what happens if there's a vote on whether or not I should give out GW stuff for free? Probably won't end well for the business and at least a percentage of the gamers that frequent the stores, but it'd sure be sweet for a while (on your end) though....
Im sorry I didn't realize making customers happy was bad for business. I don't see how including a few additional rules and models will hurt BGs bottom line. Specially if im willing to pay additional money to play them.
im glad you are willing to try it out first,so thanks for that.
P.S.
The most dickish thing you said was the bit about voting for free stuff. Really???
Lol.
Dude, you for real!? Putting "lol" at the end of something doesn't make it alright to say. First off, if every business in the world first priority was to make people happy, there would be NO businesses. Just look at GW or Apple for example. Second, there is NO way to make everyone happy, there is always going to be the guy who isn't happy and is going to bitch about it. Third, if I have a budget of $500 for 40K & I see that BG is going to allow FW armies at every tourney, I'm going to buy a $500 army from FW, and guess what; that's $500 that BG just lost. Plus the people who arn't going to pay the tourney cost because they don't want to play agenst FW armies/ pay the "extra fee". FW is fun to use every once in a while, but not EVERY tourney. And you know what, whining about not getting what you wanted because Papa Chase said no is not going to get you very far.
/rant
EDIT:
And if Battlegrounds didn't really didn't care about making their customers happy, they wouldn't do: 40K Tourneys, 10% discount with receipts, provide amazing game tables that are free to use, pay for this forum, the list goes on and on....
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For better or worse, this will not be put to a vote.
Sorry if that sounds dickish, but it's just not the way we're going to handle it.
edit: Not all of the people in the community read or post on the boards. Also, as has been mentioned a few times in this thread, the primary point of discussion is how the allowance of FW stuff impacts BG's sales of GW models / supplies. I'm not about to deviate from something that seems to be working just fine based on a vote alone.
I am 100% behind giving the community what it wants and experimenting with various things. I hope that much is clear. It's just GOT to work well for the business.
Like, what happens if there's a vote on whether or not I should give out GW stuff for free? Probably won't end well for the business and at least a percentage of the gamers that frequent the stores, but it'd sure be sweet for a while (on your end) though....
Im sorry I didn't realize making customers happy was bad for business. I don't see how including a few additional rules and models will hurt BGs bottom line. Specially if im willing to pay additional money to play them.
im glad you are willing to try it out first,so thanks for that.
P.S.
The most dickish thing you said was the bit about voting for free stuff. Really???
Lol.
Dude, you for real!? Putting "lol" at the end of something doesn't make it alright to say. First off, if every business in the world first priority was to make people happy, there would be NO businesses. Just look at GW or Apple for example. Second, there is NO way to make everyone happy, there is always going to be the guy who isn't happy and is going to bitch about it. Third, if I have a budget of $500 for 40K & I see that BG is going to allow FW armies at every tourney, I'm going to buy a $500 army from FW, and guess what; that's $500 that BG just lost. Plus the people who arn't going to pay the tourney cost because they don't want to play agenst FW armies/ pay the "extra fee". FW is fun to use every once in a while, but not EVERY tourney. And you know what, whining about not getting what you wanted because Papa Chase said no is not going to get you very far.
/rant
EDIT:
And if Battlegrounds didn't really didn't care about making their customers happy, they wouldn't do: 40K Tourneys, 10% discount with receipts, provide amazing game tables that are free to use, pay for this forum, the list goes on and on....
Nice Rant Dylan I agree 100% with you
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Ha, i look in after a a couple days from my post and i see "voting" from customers to determine what the gaming store should allow. And thanks Dylan you said it right on the money, same with you chase
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In the end as it states in FW rules it is always up to the organizer to allow them
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For better or worse, this will not be put to a vote.
Sorry if that sounds dickish, but it's just not the way we're going to handle it.
edit: Not all of the people in the community read or post on the boards. Also, as has been mentioned a few times in this thread, the primary point of discussion is how the allowance of FW stuff impacts BG's sales of GW models / supplies. I'm not about to deviate from something that seems to be working just fine based on a vote alone.
I am 100% behind giving the community what it wants and experimenting with various things. I hope that much is clear. It's just GOT to work well for the business.
Like, what happens if there's a vote on whether or not I should give out GW stuff for free? Probably won't end well for the business and at least a percentage of the gamers that frequent the stores, but it'd sure be sweet for a while (on your end) though....
Im sorry I didn't realize making customers happy was bad for business. I don't see how including a few additional rules and models will hurt BGs bottom line. Specially if im willing to pay additional money to play them.
im glad you are willing to try it out first,so thanks for that.
P.S.
The most dickish thing you said was the bit about voting for free stuff. Really???
Lol.
Dude, you for real!? Putting "lol" at the end of something doesn't make it alright to say. First off, if every business in the world first priority was to make people happy, there would be NO businesses. Just look at GW or Apple for example. Second, there is NO way to make everyone happy, there is always going to be the guy who isn't happy and is going to bitch about it. Third, if I have a budget of $500 for 40K & I see that BG is going to allow FW armies at evert tourney, I'm going to buy a $500 army from FW, and guess what; that's $500 that BG just lost. Plus the people who arn't going to pay the tourney cost because they don't want to play agenst FW armies/ pay the "extra fee". FW is fun to use every once in a while, but not EVERY tourney. And you know what, whining about not getting what you wanted because Papa Chase said no is not going to get you very far.
/rant
EDIT:
And if Battlegrounds didn't really didn't care about making their customers happy, they wouldn't do: 40K Tourneys, 10% discount with receipts, provide amazing game tables that are free to use, pay for this forum, the list goes on and on....
first off. Sarcasm is tough to translate to text. The comment about voting for free stuff was ridiculous. No one is saying that BG should give anything away or not make money. I don't know where you learn how to run a business but I run a construction company and keeping my customers happy makes me alot of money. Unhappy customers generally don't call back. that means lost potential revenue.
I like BG and want them to make money. I will keep supporting them with my patronage.
Chase said he gonna try it out this year so we'll see how it turns out. Im good with that.
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[/quote]
first off. Sarcasm is tough to translate to text. The comment about voting for free stuff was ridiculous. No one is saying that BG should give anything away or not make money. I don't know where you learn how to run a business but I run a construction company and keeping my customers happy makes me alot of money. Unhappy customers generally don't call back. that means lost potential revenue.
I like BG and want them to make money. I will keep supporting them with my patronage.
Chase said he gonna try it out this year so we'll see how it turns out. Im good with that.
[/quote]
People buying from FW is lost revenue as its not sold in the store. And BG always trys to make its customers happy, but just as dylan said, you cant make everyone happy and maybe, just maybe only 5% of the community actually uses the forums and even knows about this thread.
Also, saying "lets vote on it" when its not your call, not your store or events is just down right rude and disrespectful to the people who plan and run the events for everyone but what really got me was you saying this "I don't know where you learn how to run a business Chase and D have been running this business for 10+ years, opened a second store and created a great, friendly and close community and someplace for people to relax and enjoy their hobbies and try to make everyone happy.
Ive been going to the store nearly since it opened and they try their hardest and work their asses off to please everyone. Chase is experimenting on allowing FW into tornaments for a first time in the doubles event. But because of no FW in the singles this whole mess started. BG is faithful to its community and if they see fit to allow FW, they will allow it with no need for this BS of an argument
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All I got out of this thread was people patting themselves on the back.
lol.
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IMHO, people who order from forgeworld often and own tons of the stuff, are not big tournament guys to begin with.
Put it this way, if you buy something you know most tournaments do not support, you can't bitch when a TO says they will not support it. All this shit about supporting the store is moot. The thread is about FW in bg events. Chase is willing to meet you nuts half way and give a couple events where you can bring your FW stuff, thats pretty cool.
If you had fw stuff two years ago at BG, you had a whopping ZERO events they were allowed at. So shut up and play with your friends or find a store that wants to run all forgeworld events for you.
Every time I check shit on here lately its like watching two eight year olds fight over a toy. Were grown men playing with little plastic toys. Calm down and grow up. Be happy with what you got or shut up.
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GossWeapon, you just made the angriest post in the thread by 10 miles. Just saying.
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Also, in case people missed it earlier the current plan is to offer more events that allow at least some FW models in the future.
The events in Abington will feature FW more prominently. Events we hold at either location that are at least somewhat intended to be "GT practice" will likely not allow FW rules / units.
So it seems like a decision has been made; I'm curious then, will events in Abington work for your inivtationals?
Some will, some won't. Same goes for Plainville.
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The comment about voting for free stuff was ridiculous.
That was the point. :)
Just using a ridiculous example in an effort to illustrate why allowing the community to vote on things that may have a noticeable impact on the bottom line is probably not a great idea.
I am a lot less worried about the long term downside than I was initially. It is still a concern though. We'll see how it goes and what the feedback looks like going forward.
The plan even before this thread started was to provide more events that allow FW rules, primarily in Abington. Maybe not every event there will, but certainly more than zero.
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Allowing FW units & FW armies are 2 different things (money wise)
When you start to allow armies, you take a chance of making money or losing money. Take Eldar Corsairs, a huge chunk of it is Eldar Guardians, things that arn't really selling in 6th edition. You can make some money off allowing that army. But if someone takes DKoK, you have to buy the entire army off of FW, (tanks included to make it a "true" DKoK army). In short, BG can either make some money off of units that don't really sell, or not make any money at all...
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*** Removed the ridiculous bits to protect the innocent****
Dave, don't you have a bridge to keep goats off?
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Also, in case people missed it earlier the current plan is to offer more events that allow at least some FW models in the future.
The events in Abington will feature FW more prominently. Events we hold at either location that are at least somewhat intended to be "GT practice" will likely not allow FW rules / units.
So it seems like a decision has been made; I'm curious then, will events in Abington work for your inivtationals?
Some will, some won't. Same goes for Plainville.
I'm sorry, my question was poorly phrased.
Will events allowing forgeworld be eligable for invitationals?
Cheers,
Alan
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Allowing FW units & FW armies are 2 different things (money wise)
When you start to allow armies, you take a chance of making money or losing money. Take Eldar Corsairs, a huge chunk of it is Eldar Guardians, things that arn't really selling in 6th edition. You can make some money off allowing that army. But if someone takes DKoK, you have to buy the entire army off of FW, (tanks included to make it a "true" DKoK army). In short, BG can either make some money off of units that don't really sell, or not make any money at all...
Yup, this is where risk mitigation kicks in Dylan. But if you can use the rules for DKOK there's nothing stopping you building plastic GW guardsmen.
My gut feeling is that this will not have a huge impact on BG revenue; of course that's based on personal experience rather than a formal survey...
Cheers,
Alan
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It's probably just easier to charge for table use.
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I'm enjoying an argument in which I am not the most contentious member.
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It's probably just easier to charge for table use.
Yeah. Doesn't matter what we're using on the table at that point.
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I just want to point out, that I will have spent around 169+ or so on stuff at BG for my Forge World army in one week.
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Receipts or it didn't happen.
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got it right here in my wallet
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Your FW army is in your wallet?
/gosstroll
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no the requested recipts are in my wallett.
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I just want to point out, that I will have spent around 169+ or so on stuff at BG for my Forge World army in one week.
:)
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so....are we going to be seeing more casual tournaments that have the non super heavy forge world stuff in the future?
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He asks immediately before PAX.
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Also, in case people missed it earlier the current plan is to offer more events that allow at least some FW models in the future.
The events in Abington will feature FW more prominently. Events we hold at either location that are at least somewhat intended to be "GT practice" will likely not allow FW rules / units.
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ok i missed that thanks