Battleground Games Forum
Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: cryptoron on March 21, 2013, 12:48:18 PM
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Inat FAQ Question. As I understand it INAT FAQ is used at BG tournaments. So on page 73 of the FAQ entry:NEC62.A.01 "Q: Can ‘Mind in the Machine’ be used while Anrakyr is embarked on a Command Barge? A: No. ‘Mind in the Machine’ is a (non-psychic power) special rule that requires line of sight, which means it cannot be used when embarked on a vehicle [clarification]. Ref: GK.45F.03, NEC.61B.01, SW.53C.02"
However the Command Barge is open topped, and I thought that all passengers have LOS for shooting, so why does that not apply in this case? The clarification gives only other examples of vehicles in general, not where the rule comes from. Can someone point to me the rule that if you have a special (non-psychic) power that requires line of sight, you can not use it from a vehicle. Even if it has fire points that give line of sight or is open topped.
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P.S. sorry if this has already been covered, I may have just missed it.
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INAT doesn't exist in 6th ed, that's from 5th ed. There was a GW faq saying that you couldn't fire an ability through a firing point, adn tehre was much debate as to whether that applied to open topped vehicles, and that was what they were clarifying.
There's been no such restriction mentioned in 6th ed--meaning that yes, he probably can use the power.
My view on it is that it's just a little silly if he can't, so there you are. (RATSB)
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"There's been no such restriction mentioned in 6th ed--meaning that yes, he probably can use the power."
Thanks, sounds good to me.
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I would actually say that no, he can't do it. A character in a vehicle only has line of sight to other models that are in the vehicle with him. A specific exception is made for the purposes of firing a weapon - in that case, you can use a fire point.
here's a relevant FAQ from the basic rulebook:
Can Psykers use a Transport’s Fire Point(s) to manifest powers that require line of sight whilst still embarked? (p78)
A: No. Note, however, that witchfire powers specifically allow you to do so and are the one exception to this rule.
Anrakyr's ability is not a psychic power, but it's really another form of the same question. The basic rule is that you can't draw line of sight out of a vehicle, and there would have to be an exception written somewhere that applies specifically to his power in order to allow it.
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Bad Matt, BAD!!!! RATSB!!!!
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Another way to look at it is that you cannot physically draw line of sight from Annie to your Target since he is off the table (even if he's literally sitting on the barge). The ability mentions things he can see within 18", not any enemies within 18. I believe the same thing is true for Zandrekh's counter tactics.
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I think I'd rather agree with Sir Prometheus on this for two reasons, first of all, Just assuming that it is the same as a psychic attack is not RAW. Second, as for it not actually being on the table, the Command barge is a Chariot and (in addition to being right there in it) the character is in base contact with every model that the chariot is in base contact with in close combat, so he should at least be able to draw line of sight outside.
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I think I'd rather agree with Sir Prometheus on this for two reasons, first of all, Just assuming that it is the same as a psychic attack is not RAW. Second, as for it not actually being on the table, the Command barge is a Chariot and (in addition to being right there in it) the character is in base contact with every model that the chariot is in base contact with in close combat, so he should at least be able to draw line of sight outside.
I 100% agree with your line of thinking. However, that's not how these particular rules are written. They'd have to put something in an FAQ for them to work out of vehicles.
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Yeah, actually I agree that he SHOULD be able to see out of the vehicle. However Nova ruled against it shortly after 6th came out and I think most other tournament environments see it the same way... by RAW it's actually pretty clear.
But yes, it's totally stupid. How can he not see out of it? It's got no walls...
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How is it clear from a RAW perspective? There's nothing saying non-psychic abilities have any special restrictions. Citing the psychic rules doesn't help RAW.
Not that RAW should be the standard.
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Yeah, I guess there is a little wiggle room...
as far as the actual printed rules go there is this:
1. The rules about how to determine line of sight (on page 8 of small rulebook) don't describe any rules for determining whether a model inside a transport can see anything else.
2. The rule for firepoints (page 78) specifically mentions that they can be used for shooting attacks, and doesn't mention anything else that they can be used for.
3. The FAQ I mentioned says that the firepoints can NOT be used for psychic powers that aren't shooting attacks.
So, it's very heavily implied that this ruling would also extend to OTHER (non-psychic) powers that aren't shooting attacks, but it's never explicitly stated as far as I can tell.
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OK. As we have discussed, I tend to believe that RAI>RAW (at least recently I have), bascialy because RAW involves interpreting GW rules in a technical manner...and the rules mostly weren't even written from a technical perspective, and even when they try, they often fail at it spectacularly.
BUt anyway, when you start saying thing like "heavily implied", well, you're actually making a RAI argument, not a RAW argument. Which is fine with me, but as soon as you go to RAI, I'm going to say it's pretty clear they would want anrakyr to be able to use his power out of a barg, cuz it's basically just silly and unfun if he can't.....and I mean, look at the guy, he's right there, staring at you.
RAW...there's nothing specifically saying he can't. RAI...c'mon.
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Yeah, I agree with that. I was just defending the position of people who try to go by RAW. There are places where RAW interpretation is much harder to arrive at than this one, IMHO.
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I would also say that I find GW's faq about the psychic powers to be totally mystifying... if a guardsman can pop his head out out of a chimera to shoot his gun at something, why can't a psyker pop his head out of the same very window in order to do something else? Apparently GW does intend this limitation to exist, even though it's stupid.
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It's just one of the game's many abstractions, and in this case it's a bit of a limitation on transports. IMO the rules here are pretty clear. I'll break it down.
A) To check LOS, the rules have us physically look from the model’s perspective.
B) Models in a transport are not on the table, so you cannot do this.
C) For the purpose of firing a shooting attack (including a psychic shooting attack) only, the transport rules grant permission to draw LOS from a fire point instead of from the physical model.
D) No permission exists for using any other rule (except IG officers giving Orders from inside a Chimera using its command vehicle rule), or for drawing LOS out of (or into) a transport in general.
E) Thus, Anrakyr can’t use MitM from inside a barge, Coteaz can’t use IBEY from inside a Chimera, etc.
For those observing that it would make logical sense for a model inside a CCB to be able to draw LOS, that’s true, but it’s equally true that it would make sense for enemies to be able to draw LOS to him. The abstraction of the transport rules is also the abstraction protecting your guy/s in that open-topped transport from being shot, which is (on the whole) generally a benefit to them which outweighs the occasional time they’d like to be able to draw LOS out of it.
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Hmm Mannahnin, I didn't think about it from the angle of "you should be able to get shot at as well". I guess that explains a possible motivation for GW making this rule...
Moving the discussion more to a pie-in-the-sky game design talk, I still think it's a bad rule. The rules would be not only more cinematic but SIMPLER if there was only one sort of LOS, and that LOS let you do anything you need LOS for (rather than "shooting los" and "other stuff los"). And, your argument about compensating for the protection afforded by being inside a transport applies equally well to shooting attacks. A psyker battle squad is allowed to use its arguably more devastating blast attack out of a chimera, but it's a game balance issue for them to be a able to use their other power (weaken resolve)? Anrakyr can shoot his str 10 AP1 exploding arrow out of the barge, but he can't use Mind in the Machine?
I guess it keeps coming up with Anrakyr in particular because the visual of him not being able to see out of the barge is a little absurd. He freakin' standing up on top of it, not even really inside anything.