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Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: Chase on October 08, 2013, 04:20:50 PM

Title: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Chase on October 08, 2013, 04:20:50 PM: (http://www.battlegroundgames.com/images/forum/battleground_blktext_clearbkgrd.png)

Battleground Games & Hobbies - Plainville MA

(http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/13759961/640/13759961.png) (http://picturepush.com/public/13759961)

This event will double as a primer event for DaBoyz GT 2013 (http://daboyzgt.com/), being held November 22nd, 23rd, and 24th at Bristol Harbour Resort in Canandaigua, NY. We will be using their scenario packet (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-AzuwQYWKDLaElVa3FkSFR0MFE/edit?usp=sharing) for this event. To register for their Grand Tournament please visit this link. (http://daboyzgt.com/registration/)

Format: Singles (1v1) 1850 points per person
Date: November 9th, 2013 a Saturday
Time: Please be here no later than 9:30am. Set up at 9:45am. Dice roll no later than 10:00am.
Entrance Fee: $20.00

Please note the earlier start time.

Address:
25 Taunton Street
Plainville MA 02762
508.316.1195

Find us on Google Maps (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Battleground+Games+%26+Hobbies,+25+Taunton+Street,+Plainville,+Massachusetts&hl=en&sll=42.036922,-71.683501&sspn=2.753753,6.696167&oq=battleground+games&hq=Battleground+Games+%26+Hobbies,&hnear=25+Taunton+St,+Plainville,+Norfolk,+Massachusetts+02762&t=m&z=16&iwloc=A) - Or take some time to review us.

Check out our Facebook Page (http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Abington-MA/Battleground-Games-Hobbies/68808440618)

This event will be capped at 40 players.

To register for this event you must email ChaseLaq@gmail.com Please register if and only if you can commit to playing on November 9th.

RULES FOR WARHAMMER 40K TOURNAMENT

Rule Books:
The Warhammer 40,000 SIXTH Edition Rules will be used.

The following is a list of legal army choices:
Codex: Blood Angels
Codex: Chaos Daemons
Codex: Chaos Space Marines + Abaddon Supplement
Codex: Grey Knights
Codex: Dark Angels
Codex: Dark Eldar
Codex: Eldar + Iyanden Supplement
Codex: Imperial Guard
Codex: Necrons
Codex: Orks
Codex: Space Marines + Supplements
Codex: Space Wolves
Codex: Tau Empire + Farsight Supplement
Codex: Tyranids
Codex: Adepta Sororitas (digital) /sigh...

MODELS AND POINTS:

1. Each player must bring an army consisting of 1850 points (but no fewer than 1825), in accordance with these rules...

2. All models must follow “What You See Is What You Get” (WYSIWYG). All weapons, war gear, and so forth must be represented on the model.

3. Pictures of conversions or "counts as" models must be emailed to ChaseLaq@gmail.com unless they have previously been approved.

4. Warlord Traits - See scenario packet

5. Psychic Powers - See scenario packet

6. Forge World Imperial Armor units (and army lists) ARE NOT allowed in this event.

7. We will require that each participant submits an itemized army list to a Battleground Tournament Organizer on or before Monday, November 4th (roughly a week before the event). An Army Builder .pdf is preferred but a detailed text file (.txt) is acceptable. PLEASE include the number of points each upgrade and unit costs on your list.

Please email lists to ChaseLaq@gmail.com as soon as they are finalized.

8. If illegal units or other rules violations are found in a player’s army list, at a minimum, the models in violation will be removed from all subsequent play. In addition, tournament points may be deducted and/or award eligibility may be forfeited. If in doubt, please ask for clarification in advance from a Battleground Tournament Organizer.

9. Restrictions:
• This event will not use "Mysterious Objectives"
• This event will not use "Mysterious Terrain" (p.102-103).
• This event will not use "Archotech Artefacts" (p 106).
• This event will not use "Unique Terrain" (p. 107).
• This event will not allow The Fortress of Redemption or Skyshield Landing Pad.

HOW THE TOURNAMENT WORKS:

• Competitors will participate in three (3) games over the course of the day. In each game, you will play a scenario and record the outcome of the battle on your results sheet. Each round you will play a different opponent. Each round will last 2.5 hours. There will be no additional time given for deployment. Players are not expected to start another game turn if there are fewer than 5 minutes left in the round (as per scenario packet).

• In the first round, players will be matched up randomly. After the first round, players will be matched up according to current rankings in the tournament (based on the number of points they've scored) e.g., the player in first place will play the player in second place and so on. We will try our best not to pair players that come to the event together or regularly play each other in the first round. If a player receives a BYE they will be awarded either maximum or the average of the winning players points for the round, depending on turn out.

• You will not play the same person twice.

• We will do our best to prevent a player from playing on the same table twice.

• The pairings for each round will be announced as soon as they are determined. Please be sure to arrive at your table ready to play right away.

• Slow playing will NOT be tolerated. Players are expected to complete at least 4 rounds in each game. If you suspect your opponent is slow playing PLEASE notify a Battleground staff member as soon as possible as we can not do anything about alleged slow play after the fact.

• Each game will be played on a 4' x 6' board.

• Players will receive Results Sheets and Player's Choice Sheets for each round at the beginning of the event. Each results sheet must be filled in properly to ensure that match-ups and point totals are correct. Once the sheets are completed they are to be turned in at the counter so the scores can be entered into the computer.

BATTLES:

We will be using the scenarios from DaBoyz GT 2013. They can be found here. (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-AzuwQYWKDLaElVa3FkSFR0MFE/edit?usp=sharing)

The SIXTH Edition Rulebook and FAQ will be in use for all games and will be the definitive guide for all rules. The time limit for each game is 2.5 hours. At the end of this time limit, the round will be called; players will need to finish the round as quickly as possible.

What You Need to Bring with You:
-Your (hopefully painted) miniatures
-At least TWO copies of your army list
-Rulebooks are required as are any additional books you need
-Pen and paper
-Dice and templates
-Tape measure
-Something to transport your army from table to table

STORE CREDIT AWARDS WILL BE GIVEN OUT TO:
Store credit is good for any product in the store and all subsequent events. It never expires and will be saved for you.

Best General
Second Best General
Third Best General
Fourth Best General (only awarded if the turnout is 36 players or higher)

Best Appearance - Army (individual) [Note: Players MUST DISPLAY ALL of the models that are present on their army list. Players may not omit models or display models that are not part of the list they are playing in the event. If a player is found breaking this rule, he will forfeit his chance at this award.]

Players Choice - The Players Choice award will go to the player that the others feel best reflects important aspects of the hobby. Every team will score their opponents on sportsmanship, theme, appearance, and overall awesomeness. **This award will be significant.**

Smokin' Boots - You got crushed... and you deserve an award for your epic failure.

A player may only win one award with the exception of Best Appearance, which may go to any player participating in the event, regardless of their finish / other awards.

• A note on the Appearance award - We will award the individual who we feel has the best looking army. We will use a scoring rubric that looks at painting, basing, display boards, and various other "extras" to determine the winner. Here is a link to the rubric we will use. (http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/13393795/img/13393795.jpg)

(http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11978579/img/11978579.jpg) (http://picturepush.com/public/11978579)
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Grimwulfe on October 08, 2013, 04:28:54 PM: Since this is a DaBoyz primer will it be using their "COMP" system?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: PhoenixFire on October 08, 2013, 04:30:17 PM: Quote from: Grimwulfe on October 08, 2013, 04:28:54 PM
Since this is a DaBoyz primer will it be using their "COMP" system?

lol was just about to ask that... and i hope to god the answer is no
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Chase on October 08, 2013, 05:04:21 PM: Nope. If you want to build it into your lists, fine, but we're not gonna check for that stuff.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on October 08, 2013, 05:34:02 PM: I think it would be pretty great if everyone voluntarily kept to the comp. I'm not really a pro-comp sorta guy, but this set actually looks like a pretty good set of antispam list rules.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Chase on October 08, 2013, 05:53:49 PM: I have to imagine that everyone attending this event AND attending DaBoyz will stick to their comp rules. I just don't plan to enforce it / check it.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: PhoenixFire on October 08, 2013, 05:56:42 PM: Quote from: Sir_Prometheus on October 08, 2013, 05:34:02 PM
I think it would be pretty great if everyone voluntarily kept to the comp. I'm not really a pro-comp sorta guy, but this set actually looks like a pretty good set of antispam list rules.

i'm not a huge fan of looking across my game board and seeing a flying circus or 47 Wave Serpents either, that being said i will likely not be sticking to the Da Boyz comp rules.

Quote
2013Army Restrictions
As it has been long known,DaBoyz has always held a belief in promoting Tournament comp.

Our group has reflected on this topic and we feel this continues to be part of the tournaments
identity. As such, we will be incorporating the following guidelines to the 2013GT:

1) All unit selections will be 0/2 with the exception of those from the TROOP category. If a
unit has the ability to be taken from both Troops AND another category (ie tervigons,
mega nobz, etc.)then the 0/2 restriction would apply regardless of what category these
units are selected from. Please note that if a unit selection merely “shifts” to the troop
category and may no longer be purchased outside of the troop category then the 0/2
restriction would not apply. Dedicated transports that could also be selected in another
category (ie Land Raiders, Battlewagons, etc) will also fall into the 0/2 restriction. All
other dedicated transports will be 0/4 regardless of which category they are selected
from.

2) Total number of flyers/flying monstrous creatures will be limited to 4.

3) Special or unique named characters may only be selected from either the primary or
allied codex but NOT Both.

the 0/2 restriction on everything but troops gimps a lot of codexs that only have 1 "good" slot of choices to begin with (CSM fast attack, IG heavy, etc)

i can understand the guys going to Da Boyz wanting a more "realistic" primer event but Chase is making the right call in not using the comp rules as the pool of players at this event would be a lot smaller if he did.

i've no doubt if Dark Star asked, a chunk of people going to this event would adhere to the comp rules to help them out. However there is no way everyone going to this will. Most people want to bring lists they will have fun with and not be gimped by.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: bradpowers on October 08, 2013, 06:33:19 PM: Why aren't Blood Angels allowed?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on October 08, 2013, 06:34:15 PM: I think chaos bikes, spawn and hell drakes are all pretty good.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Chase on October 08, 2013, 06:35:28 PM: Quote from: bradpowers on October 08, 2013, 06:33:19 PM
Why aren't Blood Angels allowed?

because they're dumb!

I somehow deleted them. Should be good now.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: PhoenixFire on October 08, 2013, 06:41:57 PM: Quote from: Sir_Prometheus on October 08, 2013, 06:34:15 PM
I think chaos bikes, spawn and hell drakes are all pretty good.

thats what i meant, some books only good choices are all in the same slot

CSM has amazing Fast Attack choices... and mediocre everything else

IG has awesome Heavy choices... but no one really uses the other slots unless you're running vendettas

i'm sure there are more examples i can't think of right now, but my point is the DaBoyz comp system gimps a codex like CSM even more by limiting their awesome choices from 3 to 2. While other codexs such as Tau that have good stuff in every slot are less effected by the comp rules.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on October 08, 2013, 06:56:44 PM: I don't think that's what it says. I think could take 2 hell drakes and bikes. You just couldn't have 3 hell drakes. Which I think is good.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: PhoenixFire on October 08, 2013, 07:06:31 PM: Quote from: Sir_Prometheus on October 08, 2013, 06:56:44 PM
I don't think that's what it says. I think could take 2 hell drakes and bikes. You just couldn't have 3 hell drakes. Which I think is good.

if that's the case i retract my objection to DaBoyz comp, however i'm pretty sure that when they say 0/2 of something they are referring to you may only take 2 Elites or 2 Heavies instead of the usual 3.

i'm sure a Dark Star who has gone to this event numerous times will be along to set it straight soon.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Bill on October 08, 2013, 07:15:16 PM: I'll be there, and I'll be comped to the tits. Right to em!
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Typhus on October 08, 2013, 07:19:53 PM: Quote from: PhoenixFire on October 08, 2013, 07:06:31 PM
Quote from: Sir_Prometheus on October 08, 2013, 06:56:44 PM
I don't think that's what it says. I think could take 2 hell drakes and bikes. You just couldn't have 3 hell drakes. Which I think is good.

if that's the case i retract my objection to DaBoyz comp, however i'm pretty sure that when they say 0/2 of something they are referring to you may only take 2 Elites or 2 Heavies instead of the usual 3.

i'm sure a Dark Star who has gone to this event numerous times will be along to set it straight soon.

It's 0/2 of the same unit, not 0/2 FOC. Matt is right. It's to stop 4 Riptide lists or 6 Tervigons or 3 Wraithknights.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: PhoenixFire on October 08, 2013, 07:32:22 PM: Quote from: Typhus on October 08, 2013, 07:19:53 PM
Quote from: PhoenixFire on October 08, 2013, 07:06:31 PM
Quote from: Sir_Prometheus on October 08, 2013, 06:56:44 PM
I don't think that's what it says. I think could take 2 hell drakes and bikes. You just couldn't have 3 hell drakes. Which I think is good.

if that's the case i retract my objection to DaBoyz comp, however i'm pretty sure that when they say 0/2 of something they are referring to you may only take 2 Elites or 2 Heavies instead of the usual 3.

i'm sure a Dark Star who has gone to this event numerous times will be along to set it straight soon.

It's 0/2 of the same unit, not 0/2 FOC. Matt is right. It's to stop 4 Riptide lists or 6 Tervigons or 3 Wraithknights.

Ah i misunderstood then, that's a lot more reasonable. Still hurts drop pod lists, dark eldar and the like though.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on October 08, 2013, 07:36:34 PM: It's anti spam. I don't have a problem with too many units, but I don't really like playing lists that are crazy weighted in one direction -- those lists are more playing the match ups, not playing the game.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Benjamin on October 08, 2013, 08:03:40 PM: Quote from: Sir_Prometheus on October 08, 2013, 07:36:34 PM
It's anti spam. I don't have a problem with too many units, but I don't really like playing lists that are crazy weighted in one direction -- those lists are more playing the match ups, not playing the game.
I've been waiting for a definition of what the game is supposed to be, and there it is.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Mike_k on October 08, 2013, 09:36:53 PM: They have further clarified their comp relating some FoC slots that get altered by special characters in relation to marine bikers.

If you take marine bikes as troops you cannot also take them as fast attack.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Ian Mulligan on October 08, 2013, 11:07:46 PM: Quote from: Sir_Prometheus on October 08, 2013, 07:36:34 PM
It's anti spam. I don't have a problem with too many units, but I don't really like playing lists that are crazy weighted in one direction -- those lists are more playing the match ups, not playing the game.

I don't see how that is inherently a problem. In basically every game that sees tournament play, one will make decisions based on likely opponents. It would be insane not to. Everyone does it to some degree, even if it is just making sure they have options to ruin popular MCs. Making an educated guess that the field is soft to something and acting on that is ultimately good for everyone. It keeps powerful lists honest by providing a potentially weak match up and rewards those playing something unexpected by deviating from the "spammer's" predicted opponents.

Plus, the rulebook doesn't arbitrarily limit options. This is essentially a "house rule" enforcing a play style that is not universal. While you don't like the idea of "playing the match-ups", plenty of people do. And I love them for it because they are the guys that eliminate stagnation in games.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on October 09, 2013, 12:00:41 AM: *shrug*

Of course it's a house rule.

I don't think the best players usually take spammy lists (unless the units are truly broken, like old flamers) because in a bigger tournament you'll hit it's counter. Regardless, I think it's more fun to play, and play against, fairly diverse lists.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Grimwulfe on October 09, 2013, 08:38:01 AM: Please explain to me how a Drop Pod army is a spam list?

Also

Quote
i've no doubt if Dark Star asked, a chunk of people going to this event would adhere to the comp rules to help them out. However there is no way everyone going to this will. Most people want to bring lists they will have fun with and not be gimped by.

No worries here mate we would never ask this. Our theory is if our comped armies can still do well against non comped ones then we did our job. The more the better!!
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on October 09, 2013, 08:58:07 AM: I don't really think drop pods are a spam list, but it does generate some unique problems to play against.

Obviously 6th edition GW wanted to make it so it was impossible to reserve your entire army -- They didn't want to make that kind of "first strike denial" possible. Marines are the only army that can still do that. Why?

So the all drop pod army isn't what I'd usually call a spammy list.....but I'm also alright with limiting them to 4.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: keithb on October 09, 2013, 10:07:02 AM: The comp is lazy. Army books are not equal. All this comp does is say, "Hey best books, tune it down to 97% of max, crappier books, you tune it down to 80%"
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Grimwulfe on October 09, 2013, 10:18:11 AM: Keith I agree with you. The comp is no where near equal in any way shape or form. I so wish I had my Eldar army ready to go instead I have to GIMP my 5th edition Wolves because of crappy comp.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: andalucien on October 09, 2013, 11:56:25 AM: Half ass comp is worse than no comp. All it does is provide an even sketchier framework for people to abuse.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on October 09, 2013, 12:00:29 PM: Well, notably, it doesn't affect MY Tau list, like at all. But it would limit Justin Cook's
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: keithb on October 09, 2013, 12:15:20 PM: Quote from: andalucien on October 09, 2013, 11:56:25 AM
Half ass comp is worse than no comp. All it does is provide an even sketchier framework for people to abuse.

Truth
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on October 09, 2013, 03:00:28 PM: Quote from: andalucien on October 09, 2013, 11:56:25 AM
Half ass comp is worse than no comp. All it does is provide an even sketchier framework for people to abuse.

I think there's a distinction to be made here (you may not agree) between comp meant to "nerf" certain builds or armies and comp simply meant to make you take more interesting armies.

I don't think 3 Riptides or 4 or 5 even with the special character is by any means the most powerful Tau army -- I do fine with just 1 myself and I think it's a little nuts to take more than 2. But I also really don't want to fight a 3 Riptide list, or 3 helldrakes, LRs, Wraith Knights or whatever else. I just don't think that's fun.

I'm not in favor of comp, generally, but this seems much more geared towards making you take an interesting list than nerfing certain builds, and while it's not how I'd do things, I really don't mind it.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: robpro on October 09, 2013, 03:21:55 PM: Simple enough, if you don't like it -- don't go! If not enough people go they'll have to change their comp system or stop having the event. If enough people do go, then its obviously achieving whatever their intended result is.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: jhobin on October 09, 2013, 03:25:23 PM: Justin is attending.

I've answered several questions of his, I have no doubt he has thought up something that will play well.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Grimwulfe on October 09, 2013, 03:30:56 PM: DaBoyz is one of the GT's that have great NON GT stuff to do so it is hard regardless of the shitty comp to not go.

As for the comp system yes they were extremely lazy, it should of been done by codex so that people are able to take what they want but not be stupid about it. Last year they had great success with no comp.

If it wasnt for most of DarkStar going I would not of gone but I cant pass up a chance to get pitchers of Yuengling on the cheap!!!
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: andalucien on October 09, 2013, 03:34:30 PM: I don't think there's anything wrong with saying what we like and don't like in tournaments. I don't think that we should all have to just think our own private thoughts about what kind of environments we prefer, decide which event tickets to buy, and then let the organizers figure it out based on the ticket sales. That's would not be much fun for us and also would really be worse for the event organizers since they are flying blind and have no window into what their potential customers are thinking and on what basis they are deciding to go or stay home. I might be misunderstanding here, but I think one of the main reasons Chase is maintaining this forum is so that his customers will talk about what kinds of things they want to buy.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Chase on October 10, 2013, 03:58:58 PM: For those interested, I have just updated the original post with links to 3 of the 6 scenarios they'll be using for the GT. This stuff is hot off the presses and was emailed to me by Jay a few hours ago.

Fun stuff.

These are the scenarios we'll be using for the event, obviously.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Chase on October 16, 2013, 04:05:21 PM: Original post updated with the complete scenario packet. Edited and everything, courtesy of Jay at DaBoyz.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: andalucien on October 19, 2013, 08:28:12 PM: This event is still using old white dwarf Sisters of Battle codex right? Just double checking.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: andalucien on October 19, 2013, 08:30:47 PM: If this is intended to be practice for DaBoyz, will the Rules FAQ that DaBoyz is using (Independent Tournament FAQ) be in effect?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Benjamin on October 19, 2013, 09:54:34 PM: Quote from: andalucien on October 19, 2013, 08:28:12 PM
This event is still using old white dwarf Sisters of Battle codex right? Just double checking.
Usually, there's a buffer of a couple weeks in place. There's an excellent chance the new "book" will be good to go for this event.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: andalucien on October 29, 2013, 08:50:01 PM: Any update on my questions above? ^^ Both answers would influence which army I will bring.

- Definitely would strongly consider bringing the Sisters if we're using the new codex.
- If we're not using an FAQ I will continue with my usual mode of not bringing models that have controversial rules
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Typhus on October 29, 2013, 08:54:58 PM: Quote from: andalucien on October 29, 2013, 08:50:01 PM
Any update on my questions above? ^^ Both answers would influence which army I will bring.

- Definitely would strongly consider bringing the Sisters if we're using the new codex.
- If we're not using an FAQ I will continue with my usual mode of not bringing models that have controversial rules

Adepta Sororiatas Codex is legal for the event. No other codex’s or supplements released after October 21 can used.
GW and Indy Faq (also http://daboyzgt.com/s/Warhammer-40K-FAQ-mbyw.pdf)
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: andalucien on October 29, 2013, 10:53:59 PM: Typhus, yeah, but that's for DaBoyz itself :)

Sadly I will be going to DaBattlegroundz but not to DaBoyz.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Chase on October 30, 2013, 07:56:23 PM: Quote from: andalucien on October 19, 2013, 08:28:12 PM
This event is still using old white dwarf Sisters of Battle codex right? Just double checking.

We're using the new digital codex.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Chase on October 30, 2013, 08:05:24 PM: Quote from: andalucien on October 19, 2013, 08:30:47 PM
If this is intended to be practice for DaBoyz, will the Rules FAQ that DaBoyz is using (Independent Tournament FAQ) be in effect?

it will not be.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: cryptoron on November 02, 2013, 04:57:45 PM: Is there still space for this or has it been sold out?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: PhoenixFire on November 02, 2013, 06:40:00 PM: Quote from: cryptoron on November 02, 2013, 04:57:45 PM
Is there still space for this or has it been sold out?

im sure chase will be along eventually ron but since people always drop out right before I'm sure theres room
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Chase on November 02, 2013, 07:03:49 PM: Yup, there's still space. Everyone is still in my email and I have yet to make an actual list, but fewer than 40 people have signed up, although I have a feeling we're gonna have a good turn out.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: cryptoron on November 02, 2013, 09:59:21 PM: I'll know Monday wether or not I can take the day off of work.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: andalucien on November 05, 2013, 03:36:21 PM: I'm not bringing the Sisters partially b/c it's very unclear how condemnor boltguns actually work, and I don't want to spend my free day arguing.

However, it's probably good to make a public ruling on how this incendiary piece of wargear will work, in case anyone DOES believe that the condemnor is in "God mode" and wants to bring them....

The question is this:

A condemnor bolt hits a squad which has one or more psyker models in it (independent characters or otherwise). What happens?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on November 05, 2013, 04:49:49 PM: My instinct is to revert to the state of FAQ for the GK version-- the wound has to allocated to a psyker to count as having "hit". This makes it fairly useless for hitting ICs in inits, but still good for psyker MCs and the like. (Which are much bigger part of the game than they once were)
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Chase on November 05, 2013, 04:57:14 PM: I don't know if this is the exact thing you dudes are talking about, but here's a ruling Sam made:

Quote
Quote:
Psi-shock: Any unit with the Psyker, Brotherhood of Psykers, or Psychic Pilot special rules that is hit by a weapon with this special rule suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other damage.

Without diving too deep into it (as I will be the first to admit I am horribly bias against the surge of psychic 2++ rerollable deathstar units that seem to have popped up) there are two primary camps: those that assert units can never have special rules, and thus the boltgun does nothing (since a unit can technically never have the Psyker special rule, and thus the Psi-shock effect is never triggered); and those that believe the weapon actually was intended to do something, such as cause Perils on psykers hit by the boltgun.

Furthermore, the something that occurs needs clarification (if ruled that there actually is an effect). Specifically does "suffer the Perils of the Warp" mean each psyker is affected, or is just one Perils generated? Thus, does the Perils affect each psyker in a squad (causing 1 perils per psyker, enabling one shot to cause perils on multiple psykers) or does the shot cause one perils per hit (in which case is it randomly assigned to the unit, or does it affect the closest psyker?)

The entry is on pages 73 and 176 in the pdf I linked ya, but is wonderfully clear as mud.

Answer:
Units can have special rules. They're listed in the unit entry under "Special Rules".

The Condemnor boltgun in the new Sisters codex causes a Perils on any psyker model hit by the attack (much like mindstrike missiles and the like only affect psykers under the template). So if the model against which the hit would be resolved has any of those special rules, it suffers a Perils immediately. At least until they come out with an errata, and change "hit" to "wounded".
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on November 05, 2013, 05:12:16 PM: Erhm, that didn't actually answer anything .

Units can have special rules. A unit can the Brotherhood of psyker rule, sure. So there's no real questions what happens when it hits a unit of GK or horrors of tzeentch, for instance. (thought the brotherhood rule clearly states only one model takes the perils).

It doesn't seem like a unit can have the psyker rule, though. Or more specifically, it doesn't seem like a psyker IC inside a unit means the unit has psyker. (and this is the most common case) In fact, I'd very much argue it does not mean that.

So if you shoot at a tac squad containing a libby, or a screamer star containing a herald (which is what everything is excited about), I don't think it does anything.

Again, which was all very clear when the GK got a FAQ for the exact same thing.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: andalucien on November 05, 2013, 05:19:19 PM: Quote from: Chase on November 05, 2013, 04:57:14 PM

Units can have special rules. They're listed in the unit entry under "Special Rules".

The Condemnor boltgun in the new Sisters codex causes a Perils on any psyker model hit by the attack (much like mindstrike missiles and the like only affect psykers under the template). So if the model against which the hit would be resolved has any of those special rules, it suffers a Perils immediately. At least until they come out with an errata, and change "hit" to "wounded".

Sorry Chase, but that doesn't answer the question. The missing link here is that when models are grouped together into a unit, hits aren't resolved against any particular model (or models) in that unit. Only WOUNDS are allocated to specific models. There's no way to tell which model in a unit was "hit" until you start resolving wounds.

So, let me phrase the question in the form of an example:

I've got a unit of 6 screamers (not psykers) joined by 2 heralds of tzeentch (psykers). I have a squad of Sisters shooting at it with 2 condemnor boltguns and they both hit. The closest 2 models to the Sisters squad are both Screamers, then the next closest are the 2 heralds.

What happens?
a. Both psykers take 2 perils of the warp each?
b. Each psyker takes 1 perils of the warp (even distribution of 2 perils for 2 hits).
c. The closest psyker to the sisters squad takes 2 perils.
d. Take 2 perils, and randomly allocate them between the 2 heralds (it could be 1 and 1, or both perils could end up occurring on the same model).
e. No perils happens.

All of the above are what I would call "reasonable" interpretations... there are probably more possible implementations as well. Just need to pick 1.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: andalucien on November 05, 2013, 05:24:45 PM: Oh, and, the reason I'm asking about THIS in particular, is because obviously the difference in power between option "a" and option "e" above is pretty huge. It's the difference between an entire unit full of psykers evaporating, and nothing happening to them at all. Definitely the kind of thing you want both players to be on the same page about beforehand....
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on November 05, 2013, 05:53:46 PM: The official FAQ for the GK was basically "e" btw. (not quite, you could still go through bolter wounds first, have the herald fail it's LoS!, and then it'd take a perils)

Anyway, Matt and I basically agree. (the Matts agree, people) Sam's statement didn't really address the question...it's not whether units can posses USRs (they clearly can) it's whether having one-psyker in a non-psyker unit means the unit now has the "psyker" rule. (No, I don't think it does)
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Chase on November 05, 2013, 11:53:51 PM: Like I said... I don't know if this is what you guys were talking about. I have to admit though... this sort of shit popping up literally every day is pretty annoying.

The guy who asked the question seemed fine with the answer though. /shrug.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Benjamin on November 06, 2013, 07:59:07 AM: Quote from: Chase on November 05, 2013, 11:53:51 PM
Like I said... I don't know if this is what you guys were talking about. I have to admit though... this sort of shit popping up literally every day is pretty annoying.
Quite so. I'm just glad someone else feels the same.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Grimwulfe on November 06, 2013, 08:58:55 AM: For real welcome to 6th edition.. LOL

On the above example neither would take perils unless they were hit by the gun. If the screamers absorb the shots no perils are needed. If the heralds were in front and 1 failed its look out sir then he would take a perils.

As for groups like brotherhood of psykers each gun would cause a perils so you would lose a random each guy every time they hit. Chase's answer seems pretty clear to me.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: andalucien on November 06, 2013, 09:46:09 AM: Grimwulfe, I'm sorry but I still don't understand... how do you tell which model in the unit was hit by the gun? Are you saying that the closest model to the firing unit is always the one that is hit by all bullets from the firing unit? Clearly that's not the case because after you allocate all the wounds, other models end up dying... You mentioned look out sirs, but those only happen for WOUNDS, not for hits...

Like, I could hit a unit with 2 condemnor bolt rounds, and both could roll a 1 or a 2 on the to-wound roll, thus no wound is created. In that case, no wounds are ever allocated to any model in the unit, and no look out sir could ever happen, etc. But the gun still HIT the unit (it's just never been determined which model was hit)... and the Perils is supposed to happen on a HIT, not a wound. See what I mean?

Not trying to be annoying guys... I just figure it's better to figure this out in advance, rather than at a table after someone's already shot his condemnors at some psyker unit.... I guess we can just hope no one shows up with condemnor boltguns. If you would prefer to avoid clarifying rules beforehand, I will have to accept that and will stop making these kinds of posts.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Erich on November 06, 2013, 09:59:14 AM: A psyker unit is different than a psyker in a unit.

10 Guardians with Warlock are shot at by a unit with 2 Condemnor Bolts, both bolts hit, the guardians are in front of the Warlock and die to the bolts...Warlock does not take Perils.

If the Warlock was in front and was struck, then it would take Perils.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Grimwulfe on November 06, 2013, 10:03:52 AM: Quote
Grimwulfe, I'm sorry but I still don't understand... how do you tell which model in the unit was hit by the gun? Are you saying that the closest model to the firing unit is always the one that is hit by all bullets from the firing unit? Clearly that's not the case because after you allocate all the wounds, other models end up dying... You mentioned look out sirs, but those only happen for WOUNDS, not for hits...

Yes exactly. I agree with Erich here. The front guy does take all the hits thus the main reason for wound allocation etc. If the psyker is not in front he will not perils. If it is a psyker unit then regardless who gets hit there will be a random perils. Which also plays directly into the way wound allocation works.

IE having a TA in front of your unit who takes ALL wounds the same principle would apply for hits.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: andalucien on November 06, 2013, 10:25:41 AM: OK, that's a ruling, I'm fine going with that.

I don't think it's as OBVIOUS as yall think. For example, it's not the ruling that DaBoyz is going with. But it's as good as any other really.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Grimwulfe on November 06, 2013, 10:29:41 AM: No I agree with you that its not obvious its a pain in the ass. DaBoyz is a crap show when it comes to rulings as they are using the INAT but its all good. As long as everyone has a good time and gets to play with their toys im sure it will all work out.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on November 06, 2013, 12:38:12 PM: I don't think it's obvious. I do think it's obvious we should follow the GK FAQ, since it's covering the same weapon: The wound actually has to be allocated to a psyker for the psyker to take a perils.

Or we could just decide this affects psykers in a larger unit because we've all decided screamerstars suck. I'm not against that answer, actually, it's just not RAW. But I think a lot of us are coming to a "screw RAW" perspective.