Battleground Games Forum
Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: andalucien on October 29, 2013, 05:48:34 PM
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There is a completely NEW codex coming out next month. Codex Inquisition.
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Blog/Angels-Daemons-and-Mysterious-Individuals.html
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whaaaaaaaaaat?
If thats true they managed to keep a lid on that one, and since theres been no new model leaks i assume they're using grey knight and sisters models?
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Releasing the digital copies before the print copies is a really, really, REALLY bad thing for me / the game / the longevity of the hobby.
Thanks, GW...
/sigh
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(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01452/pirate-bay_1452458c.jpg)
Behold the New GW online store. ;)
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Releasing the digital copies before the print copies is a really, really, REALLY bad thing for me / the game / the longevity of the hobby.
Thanks, GW...
/sigh
agreed, i like my books without batteries. i REALLY hope this doesn't become the norm with codex releases...
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I sorta doubt it will be very substantial...probably more like a supplement, just a way to ally inquisitors into sisters,etc.
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(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01452/pirate-bay_1452458c.jpg)
Behold the New GW online store. ;)
This made me lol.
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So it plays out like this-
The forgeworld chapter tactics came out, and the Red Hunters one says something to the effect of "if your army contains in Inquisitor, Grey Knights and Adepta Sororita are Battle Brothers" . And then the internet was like "Wait, what?", and Forgeworld responded with "U MAD BRO", and then this came out.
This does not replace GK nor the SoB books, those are still valid. This simply lets you include an Inquisitor in your Imperial force, so;
A) Rules for Deathwatch
B) Comedy Anti-Demon/Xenos/Whatever
What I see this really being is (based on the chapter tactics released this month) is something along the lines of taking an Inquisitor as part of your HQ (perhaps as a non-FOC slot unit), which then would allow you to ally with GK/SoB/Red Hunters.
Still pretty awesome, because I've been on the path to make a Deathwatch Army for years.
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I had a feeling that it would be something like this because the last page of the newest White Dwarf is covered in Inquisition models.
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It would be kinda nice if they expanded on the options from what a regular GK inquistior or retinue could get. Just more characterful stuff.
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I for one like the option of inquisition one way or another with out having to ally with grey knights. I also would rather a physical book over a dled one.
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*yawn* another imperial codex thingy...
wake me up when the boyz git sum luv.....
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The best and only real logical reason I ever heard about why FW wasn't allowed in "normal" tournaments was accessibility. Now GW has removed that from the equation.
Go spend $600 and have the codex first!
Yawnsville. Population: GW.
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So, is this exclusively digital or will it be released physically? What about the new sisters codex?
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I think that there was a promise that if the Sisters digital version sold well, it would eventually be released in paper...
I don't know how the GW guys figure out their strategy here. It seems like everyone who has already bought a sisters army probably will have already bought the digital codex. After all, you've sunk $1000 or so into a set of models, and now you just have to pay $30 to be able to play with them again. No brainer.
So then, who's going to buy a paper re-release of the same codex? Without a model release, it's certainly not going to attract any NEW sisters players... I don't get it.
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Hell of a middle finger to brick and mortars.
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I don't know how the GW guys figure out their strategy here. It seems like everyone who has already bought a sisters army probably will have already bought the digital codex. After all, you've sunk $1000 or so into a set of models, and now you just have to pay $30 to be able to play with them again. No brainer.
So then, who's going to buy a paper re-release of the same codex? Without a model release, it's certainly not going to attract any NEW sisters players... I don't get it.
Man, I never understand anything about GW business practices. I'm sure they have people with business degrees there....just don't see it.
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"So I have been told this will be a codex written to be a battle brother army to the Imperium, meaning yes, it will take up your allies slot. So if you were a little panicked, that Inquisitors would be able to join any allied forces, and still allow for an allies slot, this bit may calm that down.
So what about the Forgeworld Chapter Tactics that we have been looking at (Red Hunters)? It will be updated.
Please remember that these are rumors: A huge thanks to this source in particular, since its so easy for us to get all hyped and misdirected about how this supplement will work.
They were written as "battle brother allies" in witch hunters and grey knights before the allies rules were actually implemented an edition later. Now they'll play that way, requiring a troop etc
The difference now though is that the troop choice can be the retinue, full of fun stuff, or the retinue can be an HQ choice without taking a slot so that you can take storm troopers.
It's not a full codex in a sense, you'll find fast attack and heavy support a little light on options.
It's the first of what will be ally intended codexes which as I explained about a year ago can stand alone, but not with the same breadth as other armies.
Also, immediately afterward we'll be seeing the Forgeworld forces of the space marines and inquisition to update all those rules as well."
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Not sure how that different from taking coteaz. But ok.
That quote reminded me....possibly kroot would be brought in similarly?
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I think it makes sense for Kroot to be removed as a core part of the Tau codex, and added as a separate mini-army that is battle brothers with Tau and allies of convenience with all Tau's battle brothers.
Also probably makes sense to remove all the straight inquisition stuff out of the next GK book, and make them ally in Inquisition if they want Inquisition.
One thing might really push me over the top in terms of wanting to start an inquisition army: Assassins. If there is copious Assassinorum stuff (or even if the GK assassins are present and improved), I'm probably in, at least as a good ally to my Sisters...
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They're never going to remove anything, it's all going to additive.
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I don't mean that a supplement will come out that says "x unit is removed from y other codex". I mean that WHEN THE NEXT TAU CODEX comes out, Kroot might not be in it anymore if there's already a "standalone" kroot army. And WHEN THE NEXT GK CODEX comes out, it might not include the inquisitorial part.
GW has already done this sort of thing before. For example, Greater and Lesser Daemons used to be in the CSM book, but now that they have their own proper codex, if you're playing CSM you need to ally in Daemons to get them.
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Uh, sure. But even if the recent pace was kept up indefinitely (seems unlikely) that would be a long way off.
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Yeah, definitely, very long term thing.
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If the kroot were to break away, they would be new models to cover all the unique kroot tau don't have access to.
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It's impossible to keep up with all these supplements. I have no idea which ones are available and when they came out because we're never told, I have to learn about it here, via email when someone asks a questions about a new digital book I've never heard of, or when I happen to visit the GW site.
The whole thing is unfortunate.
It's especially unfortunate when a player gets crushed by a list out of digital codex they've never heard about. I've got to explain to him that it's a "digital only" thing and there's no way I can get it or sell it. It then sparks a series of questions that I have no good answer for. It sucks.
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I don't think Tau will lose Kroot. I could see Kroot being made to be a separate supplement as well as being in the Tau codex though. I wouldn't mind using them as allies if they have some better melee abilities.
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Could you just ban digital codifies that don't have a physical counterpart? Cause that does suck
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Could you just ban digital codifies that don't have a physical counterpart? Cause that does suck
all that would do is frustrate someone who loves or only has a particular army (sisters for example). Someone shouldn't be penalized by not being able to use the most current rules just because GW sucks.
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What we may have to do in the future for tournaments is allow more time for set-up, so that people can explain what the hell their army is about and answer a litany of questions.
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What we may have to do in the future for tournaments is allow more time for set-up, so that people can explain what the hell their army is about and answer a litany of questions.
a little extra enforcement on lists would be awesome as well. I know myself and others are a little tired of running into the "my list is on my phone" or "my list is in my head"
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People are supposed to have copies of their list on hand.
Every tournament post has the following in it. I know that no one really reads the event posts, but....
What You Need to Bring with You:
-Your (hopefully painted) miniatures
-At least TWO copies of your army list
-Rulebooks are required as are any additional books you need
-Pen and paper
-Dice and templates
-Tape measure
-Something to transport your army from table to table
Looks like I'll need to add a point to each mission for having a physical list.
Why are things with events getting more difficult lately? You'd imagine they'd get easier over time.
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to be honest, i really hope they make paper backs just not for sisters but all future armies. Granted digital is fine, but im sure a lot of people prefer to have a book to use. I myself prefer a book because a book wont break when it gets dropped, stepped on, sat on of buried in my car
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also if by chance they make a sisters book, chase put one on held for me. Ive always wanted to build a small sisters army but the rules were to old and BG dint have much for models when i was a kid
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For the record, I would also prefer a physical codex if both print and digital were available.
Chase I sympathize with your point that codexes and supplements are coming out too fast and do not flow through the retail store. I suppose it places a large burden of work on store staff to obtain copies of everything (buy them from GW without the ability to sell the item?) and understand the implications... It seems kind of nice to someone like me who really only plays 1 game and is constantly fiending for more stuff to come out and read about, but it's different for a game store who needs to support various games (many of which you DO sell all the pieces for) and is already on constant information overload. It would become very difficult for you to "set the tone" yourselves when it comes to maintaining a healthy competitive play environment and you would need to have the players "self regulate" more... don't know how it will end up exactly.
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It seems to me that codexes, themselves, should not really be a source of revenue, anyway, it should be a loss leader for the models.
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People are supposed to have copies of their list on hand.
Every tournament post has the following in it. I know that no one really reads the event posts, but....
What You Need to Bring with You:
-Your (hopefully painted) miniatures
-At least TWO copies of your army list
-Rulebooks are required as are any additional books you need
-Pen and paper
-Dice and templates
-Tape measure
-Something to transport your army from table to table
Looks like I'll need to add a point to each mission for having a physical list.
Why are things with events getting more difficult lately? You'd imagine they'd get easier over time.
Is there anyone that really isnt bringing copies to tournaments?
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It seems to me that codexes, themselves, should not really be a source of revenue, anyway, it should be a loss leader for the models.
For GW, sure. Definitely not for BG.
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thw only reason i mentioned the ban is because Chase said earlier that some one gets their ass kicked from a digital codex and there is no way to double check.
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You can check the rules, Steve, but it requires a player looking at a digital document that they've never heard of on someone's phone or iPad and then just taking it as fact.
It doesn't sit well with people.
I'd imagine the average 40k player hears about a new codex somehow. I don't imagine the average 40k player hears about the digital supplements.
I can PROMISE you that I couldn't list all of the supplements with any confidence whatsoever, and that's largely because I'm not concerned with them (I can't sell them).
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You can check the rules, Steve, but it requires a player looking at a digital document that they've never heard of on someone's phone or iPad and then just taking it as fact.
It doesn't sit well with people.
People will have to get over this. its not like people making their own PDF with GW watermark/copywrite is going to happen. you'll see 3d printed models become commonplace first.
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Wait Keith until you see the Angry Marines Supplement I am going to use in the next tournament. ;D
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You can check the rules, Steve, but it requires a player looking at a digital document that they've never heard of on someone's phone or iPad and then just taking it as fact.
It doesn't sit well with people.
I'd imagine the average 40k player hears about a new codex somehow. I don't imagine the average 40k player hears about the digital supplements.
I can PROMISE you that I couldn't list all of the supplements with any confidence whatsoever, and that's largely because I'm not concerned with them (I can't sell them).
The not sitting well with people part was the reasoning for my idea. I wouldn't like if I were at a tourney, asked some one if I. Can see their rules, and they hand me their iPhone.
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People will have to get over this.
Or BG simply wouldn't allow at tournaments the supplements they cannot sell, which people also would have to get over.
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People will have to get over this.
Or BG simply wouldn't allow at tournaments the supplements they cannot sell, which people also would have to get over.
That gets complicated too. If the new sisters codex (digital only) is banned, does that mean the OLD Sisters codex is legal at BG only?
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Maybe BG can go to kinko's and print out the pages of the digital codexes, and sell THOSE! That's legal right?
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Maybe BG can go to kinko's and print out the pages of the digital codexes, and sell THOSE! That's legal right?
you have to know the secret handshake to access the behind the counter "special stock"
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I think, generally speaking, there are enough serious gamers (like 10 or more) at any main BG tournament that it would be hard to put one over on people.
I also agree with Keith, no one is forging .pdfs or anything.
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People will have to get over this.
Or BG simply wouldn't allow at tournaments the supplements they cannot sell, which people also would have to get over.
Instead of the complaining I read this is the best compromise I have read.
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The fact this discussion is happening demonstrates how idiotic GW has been.
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Yup.
Less than ideal. No sense in worrying about it too much. Instead, we'll just have to focus on doing what we do better and better and hope the community continues to support the store and our events.
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People will have to get over this.
Or BG simply wouldn't allow at tournaments the supplements they cannot sell, which people also would have to get over.
That is fine, but I suspect many people will take exception to not being able to use legal army books. this is not like the FW situation.
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The fact this discussion is happening demonstrates how idiotic GW has been.
I think it is the yearly(quarterly?) challenge for the executives. Who ever makes the customers scratch their heads dumbfounded the longest gets the biggest bonus.
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I, for one, would be very upset if I was not allowed to use farsight units.
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I think that budgeting 15 minutes for army explanation/discussion at tourneys, and having it be an EXPECTED thing (not something you complain about how it's taking up game time), is a GREAT idea.
Plus, if two guys play who already know each others' armies well, they can just get a head start on the actual game. Maybe it will result in fewer games going to time (not having space for 7 turns) in those situations.
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If everyone has an army list what is the issue? An army list with the stats of units/models, and a run down of all the special equipment should be fine, people should ACTUALLY LOOK at these things.
The only things that need to be explained are special rules and unique psychic powers.
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Yeah, all codexes have unique special rules that are important to the functioning of the army and couldn't be understood by looking at an army list. Even Sisters.
Also, many army lists don't contain all the special rules (even book rules) and stats of weapons possessed by each unit. Army Builder printouts can contain this info, but if they do, the list is about pages long (thus, 15 minutes to read and understand it seems reasonable). If you choose "tournament summary" option when printing your list, it doesn't include things like the stats of weapons.
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I don't actually think it's reasonable to expect the opponent to know your codex -- there should always be some explanation. Ok, it's all fine that my army list says a guy has "Neuro Web System Jammer", but what does that actually mean? What do psykotroke grenades do, and are they different than psyke-out grenades? (they are) What the hell is a plasma siphon? Is an Iron Halo any different than a Rosarius (no, actually).
In practice I skip it with a lot of the more seasoned players I know....not because they know every little thing every piece of wargear does, but because they have a vague idea what the army does and what questions to ask.
But yes, for any newer player or player I don't know, I start saying, "this unit does this, and that unit can do that, and just so you know my hammerheads have sensor spines, etc.".
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Yeah, all codexes have unique special rules that are important to the functioning of the army and couldn't be understood by looking at an army list. Even Sisters.
Also, many army lists don't contain all the special rules (even book rules) and stats of weapons possessed by each unit. Army Builder printouts can contain this info, but if they do, the list is about pages long (thus, 15 minutes to read and understand it seems reasonable). If you choose "tournament summary" option when printing your list, it doesn't include things like the stats of weapons.
I always print this stuff out from AB. And it takes 1 page. I also quickly explain the range of weapons and what they are. This never takes more than 4 minutes to do.
So, your point is that all the books, even the hard cover ones need to be explained to opponents. So what is the issue with non hard cover? Just that it is on PDF and you have to look at a screen instead?
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Yeah, all codexes have unique special rules that are important to the functioning of the army and couldn't be understood by looking at an army list. Even Sisters.
Also, many army lists don't contain all the special rules (even book rules) and stats of weapons possessed by each unit. Army Builder printouts can contain this info, but if they do, the list is about pages long (thus, 15 minutes to read and understand it seems reasonable). If you choose "tournament summary" option when printing your list, it doesn't include things like the stats of weapons.
I always print this stuff out from AB. And it takes 1 page. I also quickly explain the range of weapons and what they are. This never takes more than 4 minutes to do.
So, your point is that all the books, even the hard cover ones need to be explained to opponents. So what is the issue with non hard cover? Just that it is on PDF and you have to look at a screen instead?
Yeah, I don't think it makes any difference to my point whether the codex is hardcover or digital.
What is making this "15 minute explanation period" more necessary than it used to be is
- codexes (counting supplements) are coming out 5 times as fast as they used to
- There are many MORE legal codexes and variants than there used to be (especially if ForgeWorld becomes universally acceptable)
- many codexes aren't sold through game stores, aren't sitting there on the shelves, so it's more likely that the person will have never seen it before
- since the store isn't selling the codex, it's much more likely that there is no one else in the store (including employees) who knows the codex's rules. I guess this one is less related, but it just enhances the sense of "being thrown into the river and asked to swim" when playing against a heretofore unknown unit.
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About Army Builder: as far as I know, we're not requiring that everybody has an Army Builder license... right? I use BattleScribe myself (which is much better than army builder, comes out with new armies a few days after codex release, and has a usable free version). BattleScribe can print out tons of info too, but there are other methods of army list creation that probably don't.
I don't know how you get army builder printouts that include all the rules and weapons to come out on a single page. Mine would go to 3 pages when I did that.
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I use AB, but I've turned off the wargear printout -- It's often 3 pages by itself, and almost anything that isn't a simple weapons says "ref to page xx" so it's not like it's even going to help your opponent much.
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About Army Builder: as far as I know, we're not requiring that everybody has an Army Builder license... right? I use BattleScribe myself (which is much better than army builder, comes out with new armies a few days after codex release, and has a usable free version). BattleScribe can print out tons of info too, but there are other methods of army list creation that probably don't.
I don't know how you get army builder printouts that include all the rules and weapons to come out on a single page. Mine would go to 3 pages when I did that.
My list is one page, the equipment is 1 page.
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Yeah, I don't think it makes any difference to my point whether the codex is hardcover or digital.
What is making this "15 minute explanation period" more necessary than it used to be is
- codexes (counting supplements) are coming out 5 times as fast as they used to
- There are many MORE legal codexes and variants than there used to be (especially if ForgeWorld becomes universally acceptable)
- many codexes aren't sold through game stores, aren't sitting there on the shelves, so it's more likely that the person will have never seen it before
- since the store isn't selling the codex, it's much more likely that there is no one else in the store (including employees) who knows the codex's rules. I guess this one is less related, but it just enhances the sense of "being thrown into the river and asked to swim" when playing against a heretofore unknown unit.
I would suggest a few things.
1)If the store wants to host events and be the rule arbiter for disputes(which is ideal), then they have a vested interest in knowing the rules(to improve said rule calls). It is worth the investment for the store to have a copy of all books, digital or no.
2) I've bought 1 codex since the previous Tyranid one came out, and it was eldar this year. I've never had issues with what is in other people's armies, because I actually ask about stuff before hand. Shit you can even do this DURING deployment.
3) even the hard cover books are sealed in plastic now, so you can't just "browse" them while at the store, or use them to look up a rule. This has been true for all of 2013, yet no one has made any issue of this until they are digital only? Bullshit. BG does not keep store copies on hand, and it hasn't been an issue yet. This is not a change suddenly when it is digital.
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The component to the digital is the additional investment.
"Here, buy this $600 device for this $50 codex."
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The component to the digital is the additional investment.
"Here, buy this $600 device for this $50 codex."
To be fair, this is a bit of an exaggeration. The digital products are no longer bound to Apple products, so any Kindle or Android reader would work fine; some are free. There are still accessibility issues, but any financial ones are less severe than you stated.
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Keith, yeah, I think that there is some unjustified conflation of concerns going on here.
To me, the fax that the new codexes are digital-only is beside the point. The bigger changes are that a lot more of them, they change faster, and they're direct-order only. So this drastically increases the investment (in terms of both time and money) that a store needs to put into it in order to make authoritative rules decisions during events they would run.
Selfishly, of course I think it's worth it for BG to make that additional investment :) BUt can't pretend it's not there.
About FW specifically.... let's take my favorite FW unit, the Blight Drone. This poor thing has literally had 3 new version of its rules come out in the past 2 years. The only way for BG staff to keep current with this type of thing would be to buy (at retail price) & read every FW publication.
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The component to the digital is the additional investment.
"Here, buy this $600 device for this $50 codex."
To be fair, this is a bit of an exaggeration. The digital products are no longer bound to Apple products, so any Kindle or Android reader would work fine; some are free. There are still accessibility issues, but any financial ones are less severe than you stated.
To be even more fair, the Android equivalents are TERRIBLE. Formatting issues abound.
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Unsurprising. Definitely one of the problems, just not a $600 one.
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Unsurprising. Definitely one of the problems, just not a $600 one.
A $150 problem then.
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So something about this conversation confuses me:
GW codexes / Supplements:
Death From the Skies
Blood Angels
Chaos Space Marines
Dark Angels
Dark Eldar
Iyanden
Eldar
Chaos Daemons
Grey Knights
Imperial Guard
Necrons
Orks
Space Marines
Space Wolves
Tau
Farsight Enclaves
Tyranids
Black Library Codexes / Supplements:
Sentinels of Terra
Adepta Sororitas
Black Legion
electronic versions of SM/Tau/Eldar
Forgeworld:
Imperial Armor Supplements
So, until it is published under GW main, doesn't that make it unofficial? While all three are GW, only GW main is seen as official, the rest are seen as optional supplements.
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Hey, look, people choose what rules they want to use. Not a lot of people use planetstrike, etc, because frankly the rules are unbalanced and nonsensical. But some people do, and if my buddy, really, really wanted to I could be convinced to do so for a laugh.
Forgeworld? I'm more inclined to pick by the unit whether it's "ok" or no.
Tournaments are just the same thing, except it's a group larger than two people voting on whether it's OK or not.
All the supplements so far, seem relatively balanced, at least the 2 pages or so of rules meant for "normal" 40k.
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So, until it is published under GW main, doesn't that make it unofficial? While all three are GW, only GW main is seen as official, the rest are seen as optional supplements.
I've never seen anyone make a distinction in the "officiality" of GW vs. Black Library Digital publications. Maybe because many of the digital publications are just the same as some of GW's printed books, only digitized :) Anyway, yeah... there's lots of debate about whether ForgeWorld should be considered "as official" as GW but not really about Black Library Digital.
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That is fine, but I suspect many people will take exception to not being able to use legal army books. this is not like the FW situation.
My concerns for what is "legal" regards only what the store says is legal for store events, in order to make the best event possible. The community is paramount to me. Digital releases are an invitation to invite misunderstandings at best, and truly bad blood at worst. That's by far my largest concern. I've played in competitive games in which I asked many questions before deployment, but lost the game because of the one question I didn't ask. Competitive games do not invite a full disclosure of the army rules.
What Games Workshop says matters less to me by the day, a direct result of their treatment toward the brick-and-mortar stores.
My solution would be that the digital releases be given a far greater buffer before being allowed. BG normally gives two weeks buffer on new print codices. How about two months (or more) for digital releases?
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By the same token, there is a benefit to this new flood of digital releases. Namely, the releases have cool stuff in them that let people build more unique armies.
15 codexes is better than 3 because it allows for more variety and adds depth to the universe. For the same reason, in a sense, 30 codexes is better than 15.
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So a big issue here seems to be that GW is threatening the "indirect way" that stores like Battlegrounds try to make money off of hosting tournaments.
You pay $10-$15 or so to play in the tournament. Battlegrounds pays a couple people to administer the tournament for 8-10 hours and then gives a significant portion (most?) of the entry fee back in prize support to the winners.
There's an unwritten implication that if you play in these tourneys, even if you pay to do so, you "owe" the store and should, where possible, buy some or all of your gaming materials from the store rather than online. But, even more indirectly, providing a healthy tournament scene makes the game BETTER, so it makes people more likely to buy models AT ALL, and makes it more likely that more new players will start to play and in turn buy more models. But it all comes back to the idea that more 40k being played means more books and models being bought FROM THE STORE.
In this age of online shopping (hell, I buy things like pens and printer cartridges from Amazon Prime now rather than driving 10 minutes to get to a store that sells them), that chain of cause and effect was already worth worrying about a bit. And GW's latest actions are making it much scarier, they are actively encouraging people to bypass the store, and calling into question even more whether in the future the "math will still work" to make it worthwhile for a business to host decent sized 40k tournaments.
But, stores like BG continue to offer one thing that GW cannot compete with anymore: A fun place to play with lots of people! Is it possible to profit a reasonable amount from that directly?
How about eliminating prize support from tournaments? I can only really speak for myself… but I know that when I am trying to decide whether to go to any tournament, prize support doesn’t really factor into it AT ALL. Basically I go to tournaments to play some quality 40k and to check out all the cool models. Honestly, you could drop ALL of the prize support from BG tourneys and I would still go to exactly the same number (which is as many as I can carve out a free day for :)). This is coming from someone who has won a couple prizes, and has probably almost broken even lifetime in terms of prize winnings vs BG tournament fees. You could also probably raise admittance somewhat without making me blink… I mean if it was $30 for a day of entertainment… I could have done what instead? Gone skiing? Played golf? Shooting range? Sports game? All those things are WAY more expensive than that.
Is there someone out there who would decide not to attend a Warhammer tournament because there was no prize support? The idea seems sorta foreign to me… such a person would certainly be into the hobby for very different reasons than I am. I mean, if it’s about money, you’d be way better off just working an extra day at any decent job than you would going to a tournament, even if you were the best player there!
What about charging a $5 cover for things like Thursday night 40k? Could one take that as a chance to “bling it out”, making sure there was always an active campaign that people could contribute to, or something? I just wonder if there is a way to effectively charge directly for the service that is actually being consumed by people who go to these things, rather than relying on future purchases.
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What about charging a $5 cover for things like Thursday night 40k? Could one take that as a chance to “bling it out”, making sure there was always an active campaign that people could contribute to, or something? I just wonder if there is a way to effectively charge directly for the service that is actually being consumed by people who go to these things, rather than relying on future purchases.
We've been working on events for the store that will be run on Thursdays, with some charge. With the limited time frame of 6-10 and a strong desire to keep the evening casual, there are limits too.
But the reason I'd say no to cover charging for Thursday 40k is that I know for a fact it comes back to the store many times over through purchases. It's an introduction for new players, which is both essential to the community and the bottom line. It's been a worthy investment.
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I know being able to play for free on thursday nights has gotten me to spend lots of money on new units, dice and paints, that I probably would not have if I only played at home or a friends. Charging people for table time for a friend game would deter new players from getting into an expensive hobby. It would have put me off from the hobby and I wouldn't have spent over $1k on stuff at BG over the last few years. Now charging for a league would be fine specially if there was a prize for winning at the end.
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GW couldn't be thinking about taking money from tournaments. They have already said repeated they don't care about tournaments and have actively shown so (cancelling GTs, cancelling 'ard boys). It's about "forging the narrative". There is much speculation as to why but GW has said time and time again that they are a miniatures company first that happens to make rules. GW isn't trying to take money from local stores, they are just trying to maximize profits regardless of sacrificing past partnerships.
The more they find the electronic rules to be profitable, the less they will care about having to print them. I suppose the simple answer here is, don't buy them. Even if you want to field 5 riptides of 4 heldrakes, don't do it. Wait for the print copy. Use army builder until the hardcover makes it's way to BG. If it never comes, work within the community to allow Armybuilder to be "good enough" for tournaments.
40k is your game. The Battleground Community has already shown they are better at supporting 40k and it's inclusiveness than GW has. Just continue down the path with these discussions.
At the end of the day, it really just comes down to allowing stuff not being bought at BG (but still part of the game system) to be played at BG. BG has never disallowed using FW (or other knock off) units standing in for normal 40k units in tournaments, unsure why this really changes all that much from what has already been decided.
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Army builder only displays points and stats, not special rules. This is done on purpose to make people buy the book.
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GW couldn't be thinking about taking money from tournaments. They have already said repeated they don't care about tournaments and have actively shown so (cancelling GTs, cancelling 'ard boys). It's about "forging the narrative". There is much speculation as to why but GW has said time and time again that they are a miniatures company first that happens to make rules. GW isn't trying to take money from local stores, they are just trying to maximize profits regardless of sacrificing past partnerships.
The more they find the electronic rules to be profitable, the less they will care about having to print them. I suppose the simple answer here is, don't buy them. Even if you want to field 5 riptides of 4 heldrakes, don't do it. Wait for the print copy. Use army builder until the hardcover makes it's way to BG. If it never comes, work within the community to allow Armybuilder to be "good enough" for tournaments.
40k is your game. The Battleground Community has already shown they are better at supporting 40k and it's inclusiveness than GW has. Just continue down the path with these discussions.
At the end of the day, it really just comes down to allowing stuff not being bought at BG (but still part of the game system) to be played at BG. BG has never disallowed using FW (or other knock off) units standing in for normal 40k units in tournaments, unsure why this really changes all that much from what has already been decided.
Have to agree here. As no small part of the 40k consumer community, the way we funnel the money into GW will have an affect on how they produce their products. They produce digital codex's because people asked for/bought them. The digital codex's that are in high demand will go to print version (like the farsight enclave), that's the time to buy them. At least that way it'll be easier to show the rules to someone during a game A, and B it'll actually support the store.
As for the current digital codexes, frankly its a matter of getting into good habits with people you play with. Don't make assumptions about what you know, you have to be ready to ask questions. I learned it the hard way last time I was in a tournament when I assumed how certain systems worked and made bad decisions. "So, I haven't had a chance to look over the new codex for your army. What do I need to know? Does this rule still work the same? I don't recognize this piece of equipment, what does it do?"
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So now it's official... Inquisitor Eisenhorn will be a playable special character in the new Inquisition codex... that's just cool... I read all the Eisenhorn books, they're pretty good.
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Eisenhorn is Finkle, Finkle is Eisenhorn.
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So this "codex" is kinda garbage. Looks like about 8 hours or so of copy-pasting + editing work.
And, the iBook version of the Sisters codex was updated so that Condemnor Boltgun contains the version of the rules that GK version was FAQ'd to do (only works on unsaved wounds). But there was no updated eBook version of the book. No announcement was made anywhere about a change. So different people actually have current electronic books with different rules for the same army.
So far black library digital is not exactly blowing people away with their quality. Might factor into a discussion about their suitability for tournaments.
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So far black library digital is not exactly blowing people away with their quality. Might factor into a discussion about their suitability for tournaments.
A lack of quality has never stopped us from using GW codices.
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Sigh, This is soooo stupid.
The effect of this book is that any existing Imperial army can just buy Coteaz (exactly the same as he is in GK book) or 55 pt divination librarian and plop them right into their own army as a Battle brother, WITHOUT NEEDING TO MAKE ANY OTHER INVESTMENT. No other unit needs to be bought along with them, or anything. You can have another allied army and STILL buy Coteaz. It's just extra force-org-free units available to ANY imperial army.
You thought there were a lot of coteaz's before, eh? Stupid stupid..... sigh.
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Oh, and you know that "Eisenhorn is in the book!" promo they did? Pretty damn close to true false advertising. Eisenhorn is not playable in this codex, instead there is a picture of him and a 1 paragraph writeup in the fluff section.
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Oh, and you know that "Eisenhorn is in the book!" promo they did? Pretty damn close to true false advertising. Eisenhorn is not playable in this codex, instead there is a picture of him and a 1 paragraph writeup in the fluff section.
That is really disappointing. Despite not playing for a while, this codex got me pretty pumped. Bummer.
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Hmm yeah been thinking about the coteaz thing.... now that Celestine was nerfed he's almost certainly the most undercosted character in the game. It really seems like he should be in EVERY single imperial army, thinking purely from a "trying to win" perspective...
Comparing him to a level 2 SM librarian in terminator armour out of the brand-spanking-new codex:
Pros for Librarian:
+1 Toughness
+1 Strength
5+ invul save
Chapter tactics
ATSKNF
Pros for Coteaz:
Access to Divination
15 points cheaper
Battle brothers with ALL imperial armies.
Doesn't use a force org slot or require you to choose his codex as either your primary or allied detachment.
You can buy scoring Henchmen units if you want them (yes this still applies if you buy the codex inquisition version of Coteaz)
Stubborn
Master crafted Nemesis Daemonhammer
We've been expecting you
Re-roll steal the initiative (you or your opponents')
+1 Wound
+1 Attack
Assault d6 bolter
.... still seems like he should cost 200 points.
So, get ready for a lot of Coteaz-on-coteaz action
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Things like this make me want to put in a Legend rule, like they had in Magic the Gathering. You're both playing special characters? They cancel each other out and are consigned to the graveyards, and now go about your game!
Well, I'm semi-serious. Even Magic got rid of that rule.
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Sigh, This is soooo stupid.
The effect of this book is that any existing Imperial army can just buy Coteaz (exactly the same as he is in GK book) or 55 pt divination librarian and plop them right into their own army as a Battle brother, WITHOUT NEEDING TO MAKE ANY OTHER INVESTMENT. No other unit needs to be bought along with them, or anything. You can have another allied army and STILL buy Coteaz. It's just extra force-org-free units available to ANY imperial army.
You thought there were a lot of coteaz's before, eh? Stupid stupid..... sigh.
Dumb.
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WTF, I got to skim the new rules and an Inquisitor, who has a "I can do what I want and get away with it badge," doesnt have access to a reliable invulnerable save less he hunts Deamons in which he can get a 5+ from termie armor. I have always wanted a narrated fight of an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor fighting Orks or Tyranids. So if an inquisitor Lord goes toe to toe with a big bad Boss or Hive Tyrant he will get butchered.
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Inquisitors are not space marines, heck even space marines can't go toe to toe with a big bug.. they never could.
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Yet Comissar Yarik went Toe to Toe with the bigest baddest warboss in Orkdum. He isnt a space Marine either. Just a 'ummie that can not be squished by a powa klaw.
So by my Logic if a Comissar is afforded some form of protection then an Inquisitor, who holds more authority, should as well.
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I was told by my favorite 13 year old at last year's TANKSgiving that in the fluff a Necron Monolith kills all sorts of tanks with ease. He was not very pleased when the S8 guns could do very little. Not pleases AT ALL.
For better or worse, the fluff doesn't always (ever?) translate into the table top game.
It wouldn't be much fun to see 10 Space Marines romp through 100s or Orks or Tyranids, would it? (Actually, it sort of would be fun... It just wouldn't sell models).
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Even though the codex itself is a rehash of other codexes, with the versatility it brings to imperial armies as well as strong combos, it seems like this book will be extremely competitive.
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In my RSS this morning a review showed up which I wholeheartedly agree with.
http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/11/16/guest-review-of-codex-inquisition-by-madcowcrazy/
Is the new "codex" competitive? Well, why yes. The thing is though, it's not a codex. You will never see anyone say "this is my Inquisition army". Codex: inquisition is essentially a rule that says "you can buy units from the inquisitorial part of the Grey Knights codex in your army" with very few changes.
In related news, there's a rumor of a new compensating codex for non-imperial armies. It's called "Codex: Broadsides". Pre-orders are about to go up; it's $35 for the digital edition. From what I understand, it's only one line long. It says "If you bought this book, you can have broadsides.".
This "codex" is seriously not far away from that.
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Inquisitors have always filled that role, ever since the 3rd ed witch/ daemonhunter codices. They could ally with other books 3 whole editions before GW created the 6th ed allies matrix( btw which allows most armies to take broadsides anyway). As far as the core Inquisitor role, nothing new here.
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Inquisitors have always filled that role, ever since the 3rd ed witch/ daemonhunter codices. They could ally with other books 3 whole editions before GW created the 6th ed allies matrix( btw which allows most armies to take broadsides anyway). As far as the core Inquisitor role, nothing new here.
In witch/daemonhunter days, they could ally with certain very specific other codex using very specific and restrictive parameters.
In 6th edition ally matrix, some armies can take ONE unit of Broadsides... IF they use their ONE ally slot on Tau, AND buy a Tau HQ and a Tau troop to gain access to the broadsides.
This is different. It allows 8 armies to just buy these super-efficient HQ's as if it was an extra detachment in their own codex, without burning their allied slot or paying any other sort of cost at all. Too much freedom doesn't mean more variety, it means more armies will start looking the same as they simply take the most efficient options (same as everyone else's most efficient options).
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In witch/daemonhunter days, they could ally with certain very specific other codex using very specific and restrictive parameters.
In 6th edition ally matrix, some armies can take ONE unit of Broadsides... IF they use their ONE ally slot on Tau, AND buy a Tau HQ and a Tau troop to gain access to the broadsides.
This is different. It allows 8 armies to just buy these super-efficient HQ's as if it was an extra detachment in their own codex, without burning their allied slot or paying any other sort of cost at all. Too much freedom doesn't mean more variety, it means more armies will start looking the same as they simply take the most efficient options (same as everyone else's most efficient options).
I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it's that far off from the 3rd ed system. Also I'm pretty sure every army except nids can ally with tau, so if you really want a Broadside you can take it (tau hq and troops are still good).
Again, all imperial armies could always take inquisitor allies. Yea it makes it easier to get Cortez now, but in the 'roid fueled era of 6th I'm not really worried about it. That won't deter xeno players from hunting Cortez with sadistic glee ;)
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Yeah, I guess if you count desperate allies, nearly everyone can get Tau...
My history actually only goes back to the middle of 5th edition. All I remember is when the "hunters" codexes had the little clauses, "you can take an HQ and a troop in an Imperial Guard or Space Marine Army"... I actually remember it was kinda lame back then, because everybody took the GK inquisitor with the psychic hood that was basically a rune priest that covered the whole table.
Anyway. We'll see how it plays out. I must say, at least it's a very appealing addition to my Sisters of Battle (they need this help more than all the other codices do).
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Erm, as a GK player who has used coteaz A LOT, I think you guts are making tok big a deal about this. He's a fine 100 pts, but he's not really better than a DA Libby, with divination and all the whiz bang toys they can get.
I know a lot of people are still traumatized by GK everywhere, but frankly, that was all 2 years ago.
Henchman are ok, can be very killy, but notably are never very durable.
I DO think its kinds lame this lets you add inquisition to any imperial codex with no penalty. I think it's lame that imperials get an ally chart that is so much more forgiving than xenos. I think it lame that they are developing so little rules into these supplements, and putting so little thought into it generally.
But competition wise, I don't think it'll matter much. Might give me an excuse put together an actually pretty hench squad.
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Erm, as a GK player who has used coteaz A LOT, I think you guts are making tok big a deal about this. He's a fine 100 pts, but he's not really better than a DA Libby, with divination and all the whiz bang toys they can get.
I know a lot of people are still traumatized by GK everywhere, but frankly, that was all 2 years ago.
Henchman are ok, can be very killy, but notably are never very durable.
I DO think its kinds lame this lets you add inquisition to any imperial codex with no penalty. I think it's lame that imperials get an ally chart that is so much more forgiving than xenos. I think it lame that they are developing so little rules into these supplements, and putting so little thought into it generally.
But competition wise, I don't think it'll matter much. Might give me an excuse put together an actually pretty hench squad.
Well..... just opened up Battlescribe. It seems that a level 2 DA librarian in terminator armor STARTS at 130 points (30 more than coteaz), and that's before you buy him any of the cool stuff (which is all kinda pricy). He seems fairly priced relative to the SM librarian (15 pts to trade in chapter tactics for access to divination), which means he pales in comparison to coteaz to the same extreme amount. Not to mention, of course, that to take him you have to be Dark Angels (either primary or secondary) and use one of your HQ slots on him instead of on someone else.
OK. Let's bet a Piezoni's lunch. If this codex gets accepted, doesn't get FAQ'd to have a different nature, etc, I bet that within 6 months, BG will host a tourney which will contain at least 8 copies of Coteaz.
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OK. Getting past the whining and into the cool stuff...
"Psimeras". Yes, it's now a thing. :)
Also, having Valkyries as dedicated transports is fun. (No vendettas).
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OK. Getting past the whining and into the cool stuff...
"Psimeras". Yes, it's now a thing. :)
Also, having Valkyries as dedicated transports is fun. (No vendettas).
Yah I saw that, semi regretting not magnetizing my chimera turrets
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I believe there is an artillery weapon in there that only scatters 1D6 and is twin linked, so even with BS 3 it will never scatter more then 3".. that is pretty awesome.
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Coteaz + Tigiruis = LOLINATION
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Erm, as a GK player who has used coteaz A LOT, I think you guts are making tok big a deal about this. He's a fine 100 pts, but he's not really better than a DA Libby, with divination and all the whiz bang toys they can get.
I know a lot of people are still traumatized by GK everywhere, but frankly, that was all 2 years ago.
Henchman are ok, can be very killy, but notably are never very durable.
I DO think its kinds lame this lets you add inquisition to any imperial codex with no penalty. I think it's lame that imperials get an ally chart that is so much more forgiving than xenos. I think it lame that they are developing so little rules into these supplements, and putting so little thought into it generally.
But competition wise, I don't think it'll matter much. Might give me an excuse put together an actually pretty hench squad.
Well..... just opened up Battlescribe. It seems that a level 2 DA librarian in terminator armor STARTS at 130 points (30 more than coteaz), and that's before you buy him any of the cool stuff (which is all kinda pricy). He seems fairly priced relative to the SM librarian (15 pts to trade in chapter tactics for access to divination), which means he pales in comparison to coteaz to the same extreme amount. Not to mention, of course, that to take him you have to be Dark Angels (either primary or secondary) and use one of your HQ slots on him instead of on someone else.
OK. Let's bet a Piezoni's lunch. If this codex gets accepted, doesn't get FAQ'd to have a different nature, etc, I bet that within 6 months, BG will host a tourney which will contain at least 8 copies of Coteaz.
I wouldn't recommend doing that, I'd take a level 1 libby on a bike, which is 85 pts. Much better deal.
Anyway, that's a lot of ifs, and we'll probably forget, but sure, I'll take that bet.
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I'm looking over this thing now. As I said before, I don't think this will have as much of an impact as most of you think it will.....but it definitely, absolutely, a half-assed copy & paste piece of junk rules writing.
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I'm looking over this thing now. As I said before, I don't think this will have as much of an impact as most of you think it will.....but it definitely, absolutely, a half-assed copy & paste piece of junk rules writing.
Yep. Maybe the funniest part is how in the Sisters Codex that literally JUST came out (and which GW seemed to take much more seriously at least), they "fixed" Crusaders and Death Cult assassins to say "power swords" rather than the outdated and abusable "power weapon". In this new codex the same units stills says "power weapon"... it just blows my mind that this can happen at a company with the amount of revenue GW has.
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I don't really have a problem with them being power weapons. DCA will smash anything they hit, and then evaporate, and that's that, pretty much. It is a little funny that the sister's DCAs are a little nerfed for no reason, but you're almost sure to use Inq with your sisters now, anyway (which is good, that's as it should be).
But, illustrative as how bad this all is...they've changed new psy-shock entries to be "unsaved wound" which as discussed, is worthless, but in line with previous GK FAQ. OK, but new psy-shock also affects psychic pilot vehicles......who cannot suffer an unsaved wound. WTF?!?
BTW, the Inq Orbital strike follows the "unsaved wound" rule too, which is the opposite of how the GK blasts work....so fail again. WHy can we have no consistency? This reminds me of the old bull-crap where the assault cannons from some codexes had 3 shots, others 4 and rending.
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Yeah my point wasn't that Assassins needed to be nerfed. It's just that this was an opportunity to settle on an "official version" of a unit, & they failed to do so, even between 2 digital-only releases a month apart.
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I know a guy who I think will be pretty excited to get Karamazov into any Imperial army.
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While I completely understand the lack of balance testing that went into this "supplement", adding an inquisitor to my Carcharodons ala Badab War's Inquisitor Frane has always been a dream of mine.
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I dream about purple penguins....
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While I completely understand the lack of balance testing that went into this "supplement", adding an inquisitor to my Carcharodons ala Badab War's Inquisitor Frane has always been a dream of mine.
That's totally legit.
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Another topical blog post, which I agree with, rehashing much of what I've said here actually:
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2013/11/20/meat-meta-6th-edition-tipping-point/
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Yup, yup. Again, it is the carelessness, the complete lack of thought that offends me.
As a guy with a decent amount of inquisitorial models (both for GK, and cuz I like FW stuff), I am totally ok with just not using this codex in tournaments.
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so, apparently now some people are downloading versions of the codex where the Death Cult Assassins says they have "2 power swords" rather than "2 power weapons". Mine still says 2 power weapons.
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Hey guys what if. Games workshop is putting out these codexes and is balancing all them for all the future ones they will be releasing.
*cues laugh track*
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I still wish an inquisitor can get a Rosarious for 20 points
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So, my codex just updated itself.
Interesting situation for a tournament organizer. These codex have rules changes that are getting rolled out over the course of a week or so. There is no announcement or changelog that describes which changes were made. So, you could put on an event, and after folks submit their lists, an update to the e-codex can come out, which invalidates their lists.
Some people who show up will simply have a different version of their rules than other people, and there will be no way for anyone who hasn't gotten the update yet to even know that another version of the rules exists at all. Furthermore, if you HAVE gotten an update, there will be no way to look at what the rules WERE at any point in the past, so, for example, you wouldn't be able to say "for this event we're using the version of the rules as of January 25th" - after people's e-codexes update, they no longer have any way to know what those rules were (other than their own memories).
Also, depending on whose e-codex you look at to investigate a question, you'll get a different answer (depending on whether the person was an early recipient of phased update rollout or not).
Interesting times, eh?
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Reminds me of the Chaos 3.5 codex.
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Hmm, actually the iTunes store does have a changelog. It says I'm on version 1.1, and indicates a couple of changes, which I actually DIDN'T notice - like that Karamazov was changed to be able to use his orbital strike every turn. But the changelog doesn't mention that "Power Weapons" was changed to "Power Swords" on the Henchmen, which is really a huge change (really it should even effect how you model your guys)... so, that's kind of even worse than no changelog.
I think that if they DID actually take advantage of the electronic format to errata these codexes at predictable (and not-too-frequent) intervals, and were rigorous about mentioning changes in the changelog, the move to digital could be a good thing. But if they do it like this, it really keeps the game at a "just-for-lols" level... maybe that's where it's supposed to be, but I always want it to be something more :)
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Yup, it's very much like they don't take their own game seriously.
Also, anyone with an ePub or mobi file still have the old rules. How could they not bother to put out an errata?
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It's a shame b/c I think that the last few REAL codexes have been amazing, and are decently balanced against each other: Daemons, Tau, Eldar, Space Marines (except for a few power level mistakes - 2++ rerollable saves and Wave Serpents basically). But the supplements and digital stuff are obviously just thrown-together much more quickly and are much crappier.
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btw, what did they change, Matt?
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I've noticed
- psybolt ammo works on heavy bolters and assault cannons
- Karamazov's orbital bombardment can be used every turn
- crusaders and death cult assassins can only have Power swords
... and probably some other stuff I didn't notice (changes aren't highlighted or anything).
... and....
I just opened iBooks to check this, and it alerted me that there's another update! Downloading as I type....
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It was updated, but I can't tell what (if anything) changed. There's no new version in changelog.
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I want to use these rules to do a narrative between imperial forces and an Ork Whaag!