Battleground Games Forum
Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: PhoenixFire on November 01, 2013, 05:04:43 PM
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If this "escalation" expansion pans out I look forward to a tournament using these rules in the future
There are two releases that are coming, that will literally shake up the 40k community, and these are two expansions for regular (standard) games of 40k. Escalation adds a new Foc slot for super-heavies and gargantuan creatures, with full rules included saying that they are for regular games of 40k. Stronghold Assault is combined fortifications and upgrades, adding a whole new set of fortifications expansions into our regular games.
Of course there are many people that do not think this is going to happen. Well it is, sorry to burst the bubbles. Here is the relevant link on what is coming. http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/10/new-surprise-releases-for-december-game.html
So what does this mean for our game? It means War in the 41st century is about to feel and look much like what we read about in the books, and in our imaginations. Machines of Destruction marching forward to collide with impenetrable fortifications is about to become part of our game.
How will you construct your armies now? Codex Supplements, flyers, faster releases, fortifications, allies, double force organizations, and now the possibility of facing a super heavy. The game is becoming rich with options, and with the additions of Forgeworld to standard games, the possibilities become seemingly endless.
The thoughts of going to a tournament and knowing that I will face these 3-5 army types will soon become a thing of the past. Variety within the game is not something to fight, something to embrace. We as a hobby have been screaming at GW (rather rudely most of the time) for years that this is the direction that we want the game to go, so I find it slightly off that there is so much resistance to it.
Of course we had to pull teeth when 6th edition was first released, just to get allied rules into tournaments, and there are still some out there that fight it. This will be no different with the inclusion of Forgeworld, and the two new supplements on their way.
I will leave you with these comments that were posted up in the comment section of this site by Aaron Dembski-Bowden regarding Forgeworld being official rules and models for standard 40k. He literally had to write a book in the comment section, but I believe he makes it very clear. And oh, if you have never followed his blog, or read it, you should. http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/.
aarondembskibowdenOctober 31, 2013 at 5:41 AM
It's been official since forever. People have always taken polite phrasing to justify their incorrect opinions on what's official.
To GW, it's all official, and always has been, Like it or not, that's the literal truth. To see it being heralded now as something new to adapt to (or worse, that it's still not official) is the very definition of missing the point.
aarondembskibowdenOctober 31, 2013 at 5:44 AM
I just gave myself PTSD flashbacks to the time I foolishly tried to explain that simple policy to 3++.
Oh, the rage. Oh, the resistance.
aarondembskibowdenOctober 31, 2013 at 7:04 AM
That's the thing. GW has released that statement, but the fanbase mistake it as "Forge World is a different company, so they don't count."
GW have released the statement countless times. With the 40K Approved stamps. With Forge World stuff being on almost every page and in almost every army in White Dwarf for months. With every Imperial Armour book since #2 saying "Consider these official, but be nice if an opponent hasn't read the rules, so ask permission." Because of that misunderstanding becoming so entrenched, FW changed it in recent updates to "inform your opponent you're using these rules" with no "ask" at all.
That's how GW chose to release the statement. It's the same as Black Library being canon. To GW, it's all the same, it's all canon, it's all official. But because people apply their misunderstandings to how the company functions, you get this meme about needing "GW" to release a statement.
They did. They have. It's clear as day. People just don't realise what GW is, and take their misconceptions as truth.
In response to
please find some way to get GW to make some comment somewhere public to this effect
aarondembskibowdenOctober 31, 2013 at 8:26 AM
They have, though. That's the point. The company's made it abundantly clear. "GW" has made the comment through every avenue it's chosen: it's plain across White Dwarf; it's mentioned on Forge World's Facebook page every time it's asked; it's at every single signing and seminar and open day from countless staff in every department; it's in every single Forge World rulebook... FW *are* GW. The Black Library is GW. The "separate company" thing is massively misunderstood.
People set the boundary on this themselves, saying "I think the company works like X because I believe Internet Meme Y" so they start on incorrect foundations, and then move on to "The only way I'll be convinced is if GW issue a statement". GW *has*, countless times. People just choose not to believe the parts of the company that actually communicate with the public, and insist a statement must come from some mythical entity that doesn't actually exist.
Clever stuff, really. To set the goal lines in a place the other side of the argument (and the truth) will never reach. It's no different from saying that you'll only believe in dinosaurs if God sits you down personally and tells you they were real. The fossils and other evidence isn't good enough, but that's all reality will provide, because that's how the Earth works.
aarondembskibowdenOctober 31, 2013 at 7:08 AM
I think the biggest misunderstanding is the triumvirate of "companies" that make up GW.
They're just departments, in the same building. Their designers all go to the same range meetings. Their top brass all talk, all plan, all discuss stuff.
There's a lot more communication than people seem to believe.
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I don't suppose said Super-heavy will be firing a Hellstorm Cannon AT a 40k table near me!
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I don't suppose said Super-heavy will be firing a Hellstorm Cannon AT a 40k table near me!
i'd be more concerned about the Necron super ark that has a D str apoc size template weapon lol
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I have been wanting to do an event that allows all of the Apoc units and formations / data sheets / whatever they're called now.
The problem is the amount of time a 3000 point or a 3500 point "tournament" would take. :/
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Should be interesting.
I've played a number of games at <3000 non-apocalypse with Super heavies and they can be quite interesting. Take away that large table size you associate with apocalypse and they can be a bit of a liability if you are not careful.
Looking forward to seeing a merge of all the fantastic stuff GW puts out.
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Chase, I think you might be surprised. If you're taking a super heavy at, say, 2500 points, that realistically means you have an 1850-2000 point list + one unit. Obviously, it'd be worth testing out, but I think it's feasible to pull off a 1v1 game like this in a reasonable timeframe.
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Chase, I think you might be surprised. If you're taking a super heavy at, say, 2500 points, that realistically means you have an 1850-2000 point list + one unit. Obviously, it'd be worth testing out, but I think it's feasible to pull off a 1v1 game like this in a reasonable timeframe.
this months 2500 in abington should be a good gauge of how many rounds you can get in before time is up
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I'm a little skeptical about this one, but I it's true I welcome it maybe it will give me that final push to finish my chaos warhound
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Any excuse to bring out my Stompa more often would be awesome!
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I've always wanted a baneblade. If I could use it in non apoc games I would actually buy one.
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I don't think they will have the same rules as they do in apoc. I'm guessing it will be more like the new fortifications that come with rules to use in normal games as well. Either way, its a good way for gw to sell thoes $160 models.
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If they do this they better make a model for a daemon super heavy.
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i don't see them nerfing D weapons so maybe they plan on limiting which units you can take.
It stands to reason from a money making standpoint they include the super heavy kits GW sells
Baneblade and variants
Stompa
CSM walker thing
Necron Tesseract Vault
but like i said in the OP...
Tesseract Vault 485 points in its cheapest configuration
you get a AV14 all around skimmer that has 9HP and a Apoc sized template weapon that is Str D AP 1
pretty terrifying in a normal game
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I think this bigger, more expensive model stuff has to stop. I have no interest $160 models, I don't even have an interest in $115 models, for that matter.
Moreover, bigger models get kinda dumb. I'm starting to feel like we're playing with tonka trucks here.
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I think this bigger, more expensive model stuff has to stop. I have no interest $160 models, I don't even have an interest in $115 models, for that matter.
Moreover, bigger models get kinda dumb. I'm starting to feel like we're playing with tonka trucks here.
in my opinion, the more detail that is applied paint-and-conversion-wise, the less dumb they feel, but in their base, un-augmented and (unpainted or poorly painted) form, I do agree that they do kinda' feel bulky. might as well dig up an toy robot from the old toy-box, tape on a few 40K-ish looking weapons, and call it a Warlord-class Titan. :P
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I think this bigger, more expensive model stuff has to stop. I have no interest $160 models, I don't even have an interest in $115 models, for that matter.
Moreover, bigger models get kinda dumb. I'm starting to feel like we're playing with tonka trucks here.
It makes sense from a business perspective that GW making these new expansions allowing use of the big kits and new fortifications in normal games because i seriously doubt they are currently flying off the shelves.
I'd love to be able to use my IG super heavies a lot more than once a year, it even makes perfect sense from a fluff perspective. But your right $160 is ridiculous, hell when i bought my first couple baneblades they were $80ish and now they're $140
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I'm kinda more in the "bigger is better" camp... But I have zero confidence in GW's ability to successfully make the rules work here.
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Some of us will just be happy to finally get in game 2 with that Pylon they bought 4 years ago...
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A lot of the hobby inclined like the look of big models. But where does it go from a game perspective? Am I the only one who thinks it's sill when we have these huge oval bases everywhere, that are literally half the range of a 12" gun?
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Yeah that does start to make the silly look sillier... really the scale was already way off though. Look, my scout sniper rifles can hit a target 36" away! (which if you multiply out the 1/72 scale of 40k is, um, 200 feet). I guess marksmanship is among the skills that has taken a step backwards as civilization collapses in the 41st millenium...
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To some degree I like it. Big models make for cooler battles, especially with more narrative or tiered missions. If you didimits like they have in fantasy (say no more than 25% of your points on a super heavy), you wouldn't see thr really dumb ones unless the game was huge. The ones under 500 points are somewhat balanced and eat up more points in your army than their usefulness likely adds.
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I'd like to point out that having a 2500 pt+, double FOC tourney/game is just one step away from apocalypse.
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I'd like to point out that super-heavies (and more to the point, destroyer weapons), stratagems and formations make a huge freaking difference.
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I'd like to point out that super-heavies (and more to the point, destroyer weapons), stratagems and formations make a huge freaking difference.
I'm not so sure when you already have people playing with a double FOC, when people are already fielding 6 riptides/wraithknights etc.
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Uh...look, people fear double FOC because they think spamming riptides, or whatever it is you fear is the way to win things. It's not, you can take 5 Riptides now, if you really want to, and it's not that great (the O'vesa star is a very different thing, manipulating LoS! and unit buffs). I only use one, and I do pretty well.
You can take 9 vendettas now, if you want, people don't, and taking 18 isn't any better.
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I'm saying in terms of game size and unit flexabilty, its not that far off.
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It's a function of scale. Running a Reaver Titan in a 2k or 2500 game is insane, but in a 5k or 10k it won't be especially significant. I think most super heavies clicking in around 500 or fewer points wouldnt be too awful to see in a 2k or 2500 game.
What would be too busted if you put a limit of no more than 25% of your points can be spent on super heavies in a 2500 point game, and also say your opponent gets an extra mission point if they kill your super heavy?
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I'm not too familiar with the current Apoc rules - I have the book through methods but haven't even been able to summon the interest to read, but still, I gather the problem isn't super-heavies -- I hear they die about as fast as anything else to melta weapons so much as sdestroyer weapons. Last I looked, destroyer weapons are really meant to literally make you take whole fist fulls of models of table at a time. (which is the only way a full Apoc game even gets to end at a reasonable time)
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You can't really get more than one d weapon on a super heavy until you start paying 750+ points for the model, I think something shooting one d weapon (even if its a 5 or 7 inch blast) won't break the bank.
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Super heavies got super awesome in the new book, ignoring 5/6ths of the damage table.
A solid D str hit on a super heavy will still ruin it's day. As to what has D weapons (not counting titans)
of the 8 or 9 variants of a Baneblade only one has a D weapon and it's only the size of a large blast.
New necron has a D str apoc template (which is terrifying)
CSM walker thing has a D str close combat weapon
Stompa has something D i think
as to Matts point, yes Melta will still put a hurting on them and the quickest way to kill a super heavy is get some str 10 close combat on it and those 9 hull points will disappear fast
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Even without D weapons, super heavys can be taken down with conventional heavy weapons.. remember you will also have access to a lot more heavy weapons anyway. Super heavys are fun and can be powerful, but still overrated. I think the formations and stratagems are overall more dangerous.
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Super heavies got super awesome in the new book, ignoring 5/6ths of the damage table.
A solid D str hit on a super heavy will still ruin it's day. As to what has D weapons (not counting titans)
of the 8 or 9 variants of a Baneblade only one has a D weapon and it's only the size of a large blast.
New necron has a D str apoc template (which is terrifying)
CSM walker thing has a D str close combat weapon
Stompa has something D i think
as to Matts point, yes Melta will still put a hurting on them and the quickest way to kill a super heavy is get some str 10 close combat on it and those 9 hull points will disappear fast
Str D is rough business, but look at how many points those units costs. Should something that costs 400-700 be able to one-shot say a land raider or a riptide? And those points would likely be tied up making sure one thing becomes very dead, while the other guy would lose a 150-250point model and then still have 500 more points of stuff that wasn't sunk into the super heavy.
When thing have MULTIPLE guns that strength D (not one gun with 2-3 Strength d, but 2-3 guns with 1+ str D), then it starts to break down... but then you're getting into the realm of titans.