Battleground Games Forum
Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: Benjamin on November 29, 2013, 10:40:56 PM
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** I'm posting this for feedback from any and all. The following is not styled to be a "competitive" event. **
This is an event based on the old Attacker-Defender scenarios. Each player will bring a single list of 1000 points with which they will play both Attacker and Defender.
The tournament will consist of 3 rounds. Each round will last 125 minutes. Each round will feature two games, with each player having a role as an Attacker and a Defender. The winner of a roll-off will have their choice of role in the first game. The Attacker will deploy and have the first turn in each and every game. There will be no Seize the Initiative rule in effect for this event.
(So you'll be paired with an opponent and play two games against that person for the round.)
The first game will have a 60 minute time-limit. Players are encouraged to start the second game if they finish the first game before the time-limit. The second game will be stopped at the 125 minute mark, concluding the round.
Each *game* will be scored according to a simple design.
Win: 9 points
Draw: 4
Loss: 0
Secondary Objective: 3
Slay the Warlord: 2
Overall standings tie-breakers will be based on Strength of Schedule.
Mission 1
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Fr8mm_DZuBE/UplL3xNiknI/AAAAAAAAGSU/aEWWBYRBzz8/w600-h400-no/table1.png)
Primary: Purge the Alien
Secondary: Linebreaker
Mission 2
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-M75vM5CeeQI/UplL3-XxAoI/AAAAAAAAGSY/vQCx7e1e_Kw/w600-h400-no/table2.png)
Defender places all 3 Objectives in their deployment zone, per normal rules (6" from table edge, 12" from each other).
Primary: Destroy 2 out of 3 Objectives (by having an Attacker infantry model in base contact with marker for one game turn).
Secondary: Destroy all 3 Objectives
Mission 3
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-xdMs763Mb84/UplL3zjMV2I/AAAAAAAAGSc/ttIqgGfHyc4/w600-h400-no/table3.png)
Relic placed in the center of the board. The Defender may start the game with the Relic held by any model for which it would be legal.
Primary: Hold the Relic at game end.
Secondary: Relic location at game end. If the Relic is in Defender deployment zone, even if held by an Attacker model, the Secondary is awarded to the Defender. If the Relic is outside the deployment zone, the Attacker is awarded Secondary.
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For terrain, I'd encourage six pieces per table.
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Pretend that's the table divided in six equal sections, and there would be a piece of terrain in each section.
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Looks good, I'm glad you got rid of First Blood.. it's such a stupid rule :P
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Certainly looks interesting and I'd give it a try. For mission 3 you should figure a table edge for the defender for reserves and running away morale test puposes
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I like it, but I agree with the above comment. For the 3rd mission I assume the attacked could use either table edge for reserves? Or would they be limited to one?
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Ah, I knew I forgot something! So in the 3rd Edition book, there's an interesting twist to that setup.
Defender units falling back actually fall toward the center of the board and automatically regroup upon reaching the center! Such is the time of desperation. It's really wild.
Also, Defender Reserves would come on from the center of the board, as if they're being dropped in, emerging from underground, etc.
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That would be really interesting, I like the thought of the reserves coming from the middle for the defenders.
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Also if you want to incorporate special seige rules, like a "turn 0" where both sides exchange artillery fire before the attacker closes.. and all defenders are stubborn (until the walls collapse) might be something to think about.
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Nevermind, it seems the new supplment has it's own official seige rules.
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if you add a 4th scenario you could run a two bracket tournament.
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Nevermind, it seems the new supplment has it's own official seige rules.
Which supplement is that? "New" doesn't really narrow it down these days. ;)
if you add a 4th scenario you could run a two bracket tournament.
I considered something like that, but there's a rabbit-hole factor in play. Time is the most pressing issue, with the event as planned coming in at over 6 hours of play plus a lunch break. That's fine right where it is. The logical solution to making a bracket are to either make the day longer (meh) or make the armies smaller, say 500 points. So that presents a new problem. I don't think the game works at 500 points any more and I'd wager 750 isn't so great either. I feel like 1000 points is just enough to make it more likely for a player to succeed on one's own merit, rather than being on the right end of a random rock-scissor-paper match-up. Flyers, Flying MCs and even Wraithknights are presenting some legitimate problems to the game balance at lower point values. So then what if I made it a comp event, take those things away? Definitely not interested in all that work! Comp only makes different people happy, at best.
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I like it, but I agree with the above comment. For the 3rd mission I assume the attacked could use either table edge for reserves? Or would they be limited to one?
I think I saw something similar in the 5th edition Battle Missions book. Basically, in a scenario where the Defender is surrounded, the Defending unit would fall back to the table edge it was currently closest to. Not exactly very consistent, and is subject to a lot of variables, but it did work in practice for the few games that I played (both as Attacker and Defender).
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if you add a 4th scenario you could run a two bracket tournament.
I considered something like that, but there's a rabbit-hole factor in play. Time is the most pressing issue, with the event as planned coming in at over 6 hours of play plus a lunch break. That's fine right where it is. The logical solution to making a bracket are to either make the day longer (meh) or make the armies smaller, say 500 points. So that presents a new problem. I don't think the game works at 500 points any more and I'd wager 750 isn't so great either. I feel like 1000 points is just enough to make it more likely for a player to succeed on one's own merit, rather than being on the right end of a random rock-scissor-paper match-up. Flyers, Flying MCs and even Wraithknights are presenting some legitimate problems to the game balance at lower point values. So then what if I made it a comp event, take those things away? Definitely not interested in all that work! Comp only makes different people happy, at best.
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no Same number of rounds. the "winners" bracket would end up playing one mission, the "losers" a different one.
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no Same number of rounds. the "winners" bracket would end up playing one mission, the "losers" a different one.
I'm missing something. I'm not clear how or why this would work, or not create more work.
Brackets are meant to derive an overall winner. A bracket figures out an overall winner in a tournament of players ideally numbering 2^(# of rounds). 3 rounds, 8 players, 1 winner. 4 rounds, 16 players, 1 winner.
Scoring the same points for different missions in the same round also provides a complexity of problems, most notably fairness.
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this looks awesome
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I am wondering if scenarios 2 and 3 aren't heavily favored towards the defender at equivalent points. I suppose attacker having first turn helps mitigate this?
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I am wondering if scenarios 2 and 3 aren't heavily favored towards the defender at equivalent points. I suppose attacker having first turn helps mitigate this?
They are intentionally favored, because the Defender needs to be Defending something. But as each player will have a chance to be a Defender over the two games, it should be on the level. What each players does and how they roll is beyond my control. :)
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I am wondering if scenarios 2 and 3 aren't heavily favored towards the defender at equivalent points. I suppose attacker having first turn helps mitigate this?
Having played the second scenario if you have big foot slogging army with lots of models then it's pretty easy to defend all three. Attacking them with that kind of army is pretty difficult. Also how do flyers work for the defender in scenario 3? Do they come on from the center? If they leave combat airspace do they renter next turn from the center?
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Also how do flyers work for the defender in scenario 3? Do they come on from the center? If they leave combat airspace do they renter next turn from the center?
Yes, they'd come on from the center of the board, and yes, they'd re-enter from the center. (Picture the planes doing loop-de-loops!)
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I sorta feel if the whole point is to have attackers and defenders, people should be allowed to bring separate attacker and defender lists. You'd want completely different items for the two activities, right?
I'm just saying, commit to the theme.
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I sorta feel if the whole point is to have attackers and defenders, people should be allowed to bring separate attacker and defender lists. You'd want completely different items for the two activities, right?
I'm just saying, commit to the theme.
Definitely a bit more book keeping involved, but I agree I'd prefer to have one list for attack and another to defend.
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It'd be my guess that if two lists were involved the whole event may need to be overhauled.
Then again, I don't really know what I'm talking about.
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How bout if we make it an attacker - defender - bystander event?
I have a good bystander list...
9 rhinos
9 drop pods
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If more interested players want to have separate lists, okay. But I think it's a mistake for a couple reasons.
1) More bookkeeping. I'm always in favor of making things simpler.
2) I created the event with a personal interest in knowing which armies and concepts can strike the best balance between attacking and defending. The attackers going first in every scenario means glass cannons suddenly have all the upside and none of the drawbacks, unless those glass cannons were then also asked to defend...
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I really like the idea behind this event.
I don't think people should have an attacker and an defender list. There should be only one list. For two reasons.
1) Its easier
2) Its just as fair and might mitigate or even out armies/lists for example that destroy everything in attack mode but not so great in defense. Every player will get a chance at both.
Just my two cents.
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Hey, look I think it's a great idea, I think it's a lot of fun, it just gets me thinking about how I would want different units attacking versus defending.
2) I created the event with a personal interest in knowing which armies and concepts can strike the best balance between attacking and defending. The attackers going first in every scenario means glass cannons suddenly have all the upside and none of the drawbacks, unless those glass cannons were then also asked to defend...
I dunno, isn't that most missions you have to both attack and defend with the same units?
I'd be down with it either way, but having two different lists doesn't sound that onerous. Or you know, don't, if you don't want to, you could always take the same list for both.
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I think I hit upon something that could be really cool and allow two different lists. I'd like some feedback. I'm not married to the idea, but I think it could start an interesting conversation.
The idea would be to limit FOC choices based on the roles of Attacker and Defender. For example:
* Attackers may not take Heavy Support choices. Attackers may not take Fortifications.
* Defenders may not take Fast Attack choices.
Something like that. That way, each list has a distinct feel that could really capture the roles.
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Yes! I was thinking something very similar. Though, I didn't mention it because the objection had been raised that having two lists seemed complicated, and that would certainly complicate it.
I would also point out that that would prevent people from taking the same list for both (unless they wanted to keep to troops & Elites).
Similar alternative ideas:
* Attacker must take 1 FA, Defender 1 Heavy.
*All lists are limited to 1 slot of Elite, FA and Heavy, (we are only talking 1000 points) but Attackeers can get full FA, Defenders full Heavy
* Maybe FA is scoring (and denial, this case) for attackers, Heavies are scoring for Defenders. I might like this best as I think generally Heavies are seen as more powerful, but FA are of course faster, so scoring seems a little more useful for them.
Completely separate but let's do it because I say it's awesome idea -- DA get to run ravenwing as attackers and deathwing as defenders without taking the requisite special characters.
I assume people have to take the same codex for both lists?
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I assume people have to take the same codex for both lists?
Yup.
I don't want to tell players they *must* take something.
But I was thinking about something very much like limiting 0-1 in certain FOC slots. I'll come back to this tomorrow, once I've let the idea stew for a bit. I don't see it being bad, but rather lending more toward the casual atmosphere I'd like the event to have.
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Ben - are you going to be at BG this evening? Wouldn't mind chatting to you about this event. I really like the idea behind it.
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OMG Ben, that force org switch sounds really interesting from a "thinking about what to take" perspective and also fits with the flavor perfectly.
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I really like the concept for this tournament. But not the 2 lists part. Its a logistical pain in the ass. Its more work for everybody. One list would be easier and more fair. IMO. less paperwork for TOs, less models to transport and mess around with between games.
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I like the 2 list idea personally, doesn't some Warmachine tournaments have you bring two lists?
40k trios (there hasn't been one in at least a year) but you bring two lists to that
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I like the 2 list idea personally, doesn't some Warmachine tournaments have you bring two lists?
40k trios (there hasn't been one in at least a year) but you bring two lists to that
You bring two lists to pretty much any Warmachine tournament. There are some caster matchups that are almost auto losses to certain armies. This prevents that from happening.
This whole thing is starting to look really interesting.
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TheFallen, you wouldn't want to run ravenwing for attack, deathwing for defense? Or are you ravenwing only? I kinda had your army in mind.
Bringing two lists doesn't seems complicated for those who want to do it, and it's fun. But I think it's important that those who want to keep it simple are allowed to do so and can have the same list for both.
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@ 1000pts DA are not even remotely competitive. Specially ravenwing and deathwing. I have another army in mind but restricting heavy support would make it useless. In some armies those same restrictions would be far less of a handycap than others. One list makes a player find a balance between assault and defense. Players would have to use strategy to win. Thats how I see it anyway.
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Players I talked with tonight are similarly intrigued, so I'll do an event mock-up to show people what it could look like. If it doesn't work, I'm content knowing we can fall back on the "one list to rule them all."
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Players I talked with tonight are similarly intrigued, so I'll do an event mock-up to show people what it could look like. If it doesn't work, I'm content knowing we can fall back on the "one list to rule them all."
New tag line for the event!
One list to rule them all
One post to find them
One tournament to bring them all
And in the game store bind them
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I definitely love this idea, and would try to attend.
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Attacker-Defender? I hardly know her!
Format: Singles (1v1), 1000 points* (see below)
Date: XX, YY, 2014 a Saturday
Time: Please be here no later than 9:30am. Set up at 9:45. Dice roll no later than 10:00am.
Entrance Fee: $20.00
Address:
25 Taunton Street
Plainville MA 02762
508.316.1195
Find us on Google Maps
Check out our Facebook Page
To register for the event please email me at XX@gmail.com IF AND ONLY IF you can COMMIT to playing on XX/YY.
RULES FOR WARHAMMER 40K TOURNAMENT
Rule Books:
The Warhammer 40,000 SIXTH Edition Rules will be used.
The following is a list of legal army choices:
Codex: Blood Angels
Codex: Chaos Daemons
Codex: Chaos Space Marines
Codex: Grey Knights
Codex: Dark Angels
Codex: Dark Eldar
Codex: Eldar
Codex: Imperial Guard
Codex: Necrons
Codex: Orks
Codex: Space Marines
Codex: Space Wolves
Codex: Tau Empire
Codex: Tyranids
Codex: Adepta Sororitas
No digital sources will be allowed in army composition. Escalation and Stronghold are not allowed.
MODELS AND POINTS:
1. Players will bring two lists, an Attacker list and a Defender list. Each list may not exceed 1000 points and must adhere to the normal Force Organization with the following modifications.
2. Attacker lists are limited to 0-1 Heavy Support choices. Attacker lists may not choose a Fortification.
3. Defender lists are limited to 0-1 Fast Attack choices. Defenders may choose 0-1 Fortification choices.
(A player may use the exact same list for Attacker and Defender, so long as the list is legal under both restrictions of the modified FOC.)
4. All models must follow “What You See Is What You Get” (WYSIWYG). All weapons, war gear, and so forth must be represented on the model. All models must be fully assembled.
5. Pictures of conversions or "counts as" models must be emailed to Chase unless they have previously been approved. Forge World models are allowed where appropriate. This event will not be using Forge World rules or allow Forge World units.
6. Warlord Traits - (If you have an HQ) At the start of each game, before deployment, select two tables. Roll a die for each table. Choose ONE of the two results as your Warlord Trait for that game.
7. Psychic Powers - At the start of each game, prior to deployment, players may choose to select the psychic powers listed in their Codex as normal OR swap them for a number of rolls on the psychic disciplines tables per the Warhammer 40,000 rule book. Unless stated otherwise, you MAY NOT mix and match Codex and rule book powers.
8. We will require that each participant submits an itemized army list to a Battleground Tournament Organizer on or before Monday, XX/YY/2014 (roughly a week before the event). An Army Builder .pdf is preferred but a detailed, itemized text file (.txt) is acceptable. PLEASE include the number of points each upgrade and unit costs on your list.
Please email lists to ChaseLaq@gmail.com as soon as they are finalized.
9. If illegal units or other rules violations are found in a player’s army list, at a minimum, the models in violation will be removed from all subsequent play. In addition, tournament points may be deducted and/or award eligibility may be forfeited. If in doubt, please ask for clarification in advance from a Battleground Tournament Organizer.
10. Restrictions:
This event will not use the Seize the Initiative rule. Attackers will go first in every scenario.
This event will not use "Archotech Artefacts" (p 106).
This event will not use "Unique Terrain" (p. 107).
This event will not allow The Fortress of Redemption.
HOW THE TOURNAMENT WORKS:
• Competitors will participate in three (3) rounds over the course of the event. In each round, players will play against another player in each scenario twice, once in the role of Attacker and once in the role of Defender. Players record the outcome of the battle on his mission sheet. Each game is of random length per the Warhammer rulebook (5-7 turns).
The first game will have a 60 minute time-limit. Players are encouraged to start the second game if they finish the first game before the time-limit. The second game will be stopped at the 125 minute mark, concluding the round.
Each GAME will be scored according to a simple design.
Win: 9 points
Draw: 4
Loss: 0
Secondary Objective: 3
Slay the Warlord: 2
Each game is designed with various mission objectives to produce points. If one player's entire army is wiped out, the game ends immediately and points are scored immediately. Likewise, if at the end of any game turn, one player has no models on the battlefield, his opponent automatically wins. The player with the most points after all three (3) rounds will be declared Best General. Overall standings tie-breakers will be based on Strength of Schedule.
• The event is designed for every player to play every round. If a player receives a BYE, they will be awarded a win with average points for the round.
• We will do our best to prevent a player from playing either the same player or on the same table twice.
• The pairings for each round will be announced as soon as they are determined. Please be sure to arrive at your table ready to play right away.
• Slow playing will NOT be tolerated. Players are expected to complete at least 4 rounds in each game. If you suspect your opponent is slow playing PLEASE notify a Battleground staff member as soon as possible as we can not do anything about alleged slow play after the fact.
• Each game will be played on a 6' x 4' board.
• Players will receive Results Sheets at the beginning of each round. Each results sheet must be filled in properly to ensure that match-ups and point totals are correct. Once Results Sheets are completed they are to be turned in at the counter so the scores can be entered into the computer.
BATTLES:
The SIXTH Edition Rulebook and FAQ will be in use for all games and will be the definitive guide for all rules. The time limit for each game is as follows: Each round will last 125 minutes. The first game must end after 60 minutes. At the end of this time limit, the game will be called; players will need to finish the round as quickly as possible.
What You Need to Bring with You:
-Your (hopefully painted) miniatures
-At least TWO copies of your army list and all relevant rules including FAQ/Errata
-Rulebooks are required as are any additional additional rules you need
-Pen and paper
-Dice and templates
-Tape measure
-Something to transport your army from table to table
STORE CREDIT AWARDS WILL BE GIVEN OUT TO:
Store credit is good for any product in the store and all subsequent events. It never expires and will be saved for you.
Best General
2nd Place
3rd Place
Best Appearance – Army
Player's Choice – An award for the player who best combines all aspects of the hobby.
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Salient points really are just limiting Attackers to 0-1 Heavy & no Fortifications, Defenders to 0-1 Fast Attack and limiting the source materials to essentially print codices (with the exception of course made for Sisters).
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I like it. Just two questions in reguard to the mock up event post.
1. If a HQ or something lets you take units as a different type, like space marine bikes, do they count toward the 0-1 fast attack or heavy support?
2. Will terrain be set up to represent the senarios. Like walls and ruins and stuff placed mostly in deffending zone.
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1) Hmm. There's probably not much I can do to stop that. I don't want to discourage players from taking Ravenwing or Deathwing, if they're so inclined, and probably other armies too. So I think that'll be okay. A SM Captain on a bike unlocks Bikers as Troops, sure. I'd rather have theme armies than not, even if they're predicted to do well.
2) I still recommend for terrain 6 (six) pieces per table.
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Pretend that's the table divided in six equal sections, and there would be a piece of terrain in each section.