Battleground Games Forum
Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: andalucien on December 07, 2013, 09:36:57 AM
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So,
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/12/escalation-is-there-balance.html
Anybody have any thoughts?
My first thought is, I'm disappointed that there are only about 15 superheavies that are legal. I had hoped that the superheavies in the book would be just EXAMPLES of what you can bring. So, no playing Zarykynel for me after all. I really have no interest in a Lord of Skulls, and that's the only option for either CSM or Daemons, so my "main armies" are lord-of-war-less. Sisters have no access to any superheavies, period. The Necron choices seem pretty interesting actually, so there's that :)
It seems a little strange that Guard get access to as many superheavies as the rest of the codexes put together.
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So,
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/12/escalation-is-there-balance.html
Anybody have any thoughts?
My first thought is, I'm disappointed that there are only about 15 superheavies that are legal. I had hoped that the superheavies in the book would be just EXAMPLES of what you can bring. So, no playing Zarykynel for me after all. I really have no interest in a Lord of Skulls, and that's the only option for either CSM or Daemons, so my "main armies" are lord-of-war-less. Sisters have no access to any superheavies, period. The Necron choices seem pretty interesting actually, so there's that :)
It seems a little strange that Guard get access to as many superheavies as the rest of the codexes put together.
i certainly want to give it a try, that being said as someone who owns 5 super heavies i'm probably not going to field one unless its a huge point number game.
Super heavies die pretty quickly to heavy melta or assault and its a huge point sink. The choices while i think it's the right move to limit the options instead of opening the entire FW catalog to play are not balanced.
IG have some decent options but only one is a destroyer weapon (large blast)
Nearly HALF the codexs can only use a thunderhawk which is meh, i think there's only like 2 in the entire BG community and they die rather rapidly to anti air.
lord of skulls is a huge amount of points (888)
Necron one is semi expensive but probably is the most cost effective, AV14 all around D flamer and many other weapon options
Revenant titan, again a huge ammount of points (900), a little harder to kill with the holo fields thing but i'm not scared of it.
dont know much about the tau one
the Harridan looks nasty at T8 and 8 wounds although it is 735 points
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Yeah interestingly enough, the Harridan might be the most likely one to get played by me.
1) Assuming I don't ragequit entirely and that the Nids codex resembles the last few real codexes more than the other stuff GW has come out with lately, I'll be building up my existing 1000pt Nids army quickly in January.
2) The Harridan model just looks BOSS, BOSS, BOSS, BOSS BOSS
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It's seems like you can only make one variant of the Stompa. Which is a shame because I believe the Big Mek variant of the Stompa had access to a D weapon. Still the Supa Gattler is pretty awesome though.
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I was very much hoping for a warhound titan, but it looks like my only choice is a Thunderhawk that cost 400 pounds. Guess I'll just have to start filling tac squads with melta guns. Saves my marines from the gets hot plasma guns that my army is infamous for.
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I just thought of a potential neat trick for the Stompa. It has a transport capacity of 20. Take a burna boyz squad with 3 mek boyz. Have a Big Mek with a kusom force field join the squad. Give everyone max oiler grots. Stick them all in the Stompa and you have a super heavy walker that can put 4 hull points back every turn and gives it self and everything within 6 inches a 5 up cover save. If it gets assaulted in addition to overwatching with all it's guns your burna boyz can wall of death out the fire points.
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It's seems like you can only make one variant of the Stompa. Which is a shame because I believe the Big Mek variant of the Stompa had access to a D weapon. Still the Supa Gattler is pretty awesome though.
The big mek stompa has some force fields and a lifta-droppa, which can overcharge once a game for a str D shot. Gaze of Mork can be a str D hit if you roll 11 or 12 when you roll the power of it.
Space elves win this one with the amount of str D weapons it can put out in a turn.
Kind of underwhelmed with these two releases. But then again, I am very eh on 40k right now because of Orks, so YMMV.
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I just thought of a potential neat trick for the Stompa. It has a transport capacity of 20. Take a burna boyz squad with 3 mek boyz. Have a Big Mek with a kusom force field join the squad. Give everyone max oiler grots. Stick them all in the Stompa and you have a super heavy walker that can put 4 hull points back every turn and gives it self and everything within 6 inches a 5 up cover save. If it gets assaulted in addition to overwatching with all it's guns your burna boyz can wall of death out the fire points.
unless they changed the stompa in the new Apoc, it only has 3 firing points so no complete wall of death.
Last time I ran one against Nick (who completely butt raped the thing with his death company) I did load it up with 3 burnas 2meks and a big mek with KFF.
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I just thought of a potential neat trick for the Stompa. It has a transport capacity of 20. Take a burna boyz squad with 3 mek boyz. Have a Big Mek with a kusom force field join the squad. Give everyone max oiler grots. Stick them all in the Stompa and you have a super heavy walker that can put 4 hull points back every turn and gives it self and everything within 6 inches a 5 up cover save. If it gets assaulted in addition to overwatching with all it's guns your burna boyz can wall of death out the fire points.
unless they changed the stompa in the new Apoc, it only has 3 firing points so no complete wall of death.
Last time I ran one against Nick (who completely butt raped the thing with his death company) I did load it up with 3 burnas 2meks and a big mek with KFF.
Double thunder hammers for everyone will kill pretty much anything.
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It seems a little strange that Guard get access to as many superheavies as the rest of the codexes put together.
Guard are rumored to come after nids so maybe that's why
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Only the lord of skulls for chaos?
Well, that's a bummer. Sorry Skabbeithrax and An'ggrath, stay on the shelf.
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Least I can use my Thunder Hawk now
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Hmm, so the revenant titan has
4 large blasts that can split fire
can move 36" and shoot them 60"
Anything underneath any of them is removed, period. (not even We'll be back).
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I'd count on a lot more superheavies becoming legal "soon".
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Whoah, chase with the insider info :) Thanks :)
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Got to admit, it's fun reading through these units and thinking about their effect on a normal 40k game... haha. Not playing a lot of apocalypse I've never really read these before.
I have to say though, D weapons seem too good to be any fun. If each side has one lord of war, it seems like whichever one has D weapons will simply vaporize the other one.
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The Stormlord..... hahahaha..... can shoot 30 s6 ap3 shots at 2 different targets. And 20 models can sit inside of it and fire out. THAT'S a firebase right there :)
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Seems like you should play in the Megabattle, Matt.
Also, some of the guys played a game tonight with a Warhound Titan. The consensus was that it was fine.
They used the mission where the objective was to kill the superheavy.
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I want to play a standard game using my thunder hawk to see what it's like
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So do it, homie. Set up a game.
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My work schedule is to unpredictable. I can't even set up a doctors appointment let alone a game. I usually don't know my schedule until the week before which isn't enough time for people
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If you say so. ;)
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I could take this challenge.
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I really don't want to play with Destroyer weapons. No, not even the tournaments that allow Forge-world. Yes, it's an answer to the 2+ rerollable aves....I don't care, we should make another solution to that like just saying you can't have any better than 3+ rerollable.
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That would be my preferred approach as well, which I've repeated to whoever will listen. If 2+ reroll saves are the problem, why not just take the direct approach and say, it can never happen? I actually was never a fan of 3+ rerollable saves either (I kinda hated playing Fateweaver back in 5th even though it was good).
Yeah, the problem with D weapons is:
It takes a long time to build paint a warhammer model. It takes a longer time to build and paint a BIGGER warhammer model.
It should be a very rare occurrence to put down your centerpiece model (greater daemon, land raider, etc) and have it removed from the table before you even get to do anything with it.
With D Weapons in the mix, it will be THE MOST LIKELY OUTCOME. Literally, if you play against someone with a Revenant and they go first, they will MOST LIKELY REMOVE YOUR TOUGHEST UNIT BEFORE YOU TAKE A TURN (as well as at least one other unit). It just isn't a good idea for a hobby game.
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It is kind of a quandary though. Mike's point about requiring a while to sort this all out is a good one.
If we ban d weapons, aren't we back to deathstars being unbeatable and making game unfun?
If we ban 2++ rerollable, aren't we back to tau/eldar shooty armies tabling people and making game unfun?
If we limit that, do space marine bikers with universal hit and run become the new bugbear?
Maybe... but now you're in the realm that seems possibly addressable using subtler measures, like missions and using more terrain (and maybe my Dynamic Scarcity Based Pricing Algorithm, haha). Also, as you go farther down that list above, the dominant armies start to look less and less like "This prevented a real game from occurring" and more like "This army was hard to beat".
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Erm, to some extant, there will always be a "toughest unit/codex", I'm not sure we can waste time worrying about that. Yes, banning 2+ rerollable will make something else the nastiest unit out there, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. It's an obvious unintended loophole in the rules.
I think it's clear that the only reason that Escalation exists is that GW was sad that too few people bought their apocalypse book, and they made all these big fancy models for it, so they're trying to force the issue and somehow say that you "must" allow apocalypse units in 40k. I see no reason to support them in that.
Stronghold, on the other hand, sounds like it has a bunch of "optional" rules that are really clarifications for fortifications rules (which have never been very clear) which should have been in the main rulebook from the beginning. Since they screwed up the first time, these should be in a FAQ/errata. But GW has apparently decided they don't need to do free FAQs anymore, they can just charge you to fix their bad rules.
It seems likely we would probably want to use those "optional" rules. I don't think that means we have to allow all these alternate fortifications, and certainly none with D weapons.
Also, it sounds like Stronghold has no Xenos buildings, none at all. Screw you, GW!
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If 2+ reroll saves are the problem, why not just take the direct approach and say, it can never happen?
Instead of inventing arbitrary solutions to the perceived problems with the metagame, why not just use the solutions they present to us?
So in years of agonizing of all of the stuff that comes with the Megabattle, Str D has always been at the forefront. I think this year will be the... 6th or 7th, and one conclusion that I've come to (and I believe it's shared by almost all the veterans who've play in it a bunch) is that Str D is always blown way out of proportion and is always less effective than people think it will be.
Like, how many "2000 point (or less), Str D included" games has the entire community of Battleground played? I'm guessing it's less than 10.
Fact: Str D provides a solution to some of the generally accepted "problems" with the current metagame.
I'm very surprised more people aren't open minded about something like this. Especially considering very few people have played a "normal" game against Str D.
Edit: I am basically positive that the "best" 1850 and 2000 point lists in a Str D, Superheavies allowed environment contain exactly zero of each.
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If 2+ reroll saves are the problem, why not just take the direct approach and say, it can never happen?
Instead of inventing arbitrary solutions to the perceived problems with the metagame, why not just use the solutions they present to us?
So in years of agonizing of all of the stuff that comes with the Megabattle, Str D has always been at the forefront. I think this year will be the... 6th or 7th, and one conclusion that I've come to (and I believe it's shared by almost all the veterans who've play in it a bunch) is that Str D is always blown way out of proportion and is always less effective than people think it will be.
Like, how many "2000 point (or less), Str D included" games has the entire community of Battleground played? I'm guessing it's less than 10.
Fact: Str D provides a solution to some of the generally accepted "problems" with the current metagame.
I'm very surprised more people aren't open minded about something like this. Especially considering very few people have played a "normal" game against Str D.
Edit: I am basically positive that the "best" 1850 and 2000 point lists in a Str D, Superheavies allowed environment contain exactly zero of each.
A 40k player on hiatus because of the awful balancing being done (read: none) on the part of GW, this might actually be something that balances the ridiculous.
GW has started borrowing ideas from other game systems recently in an effort to make the game better (read: sell more models- making the game better is a way to sell more models). The idea of giving things that level the playing field is something that other companies do to add some spice while balancing the game.
If everyone has something broken, then none of it is broken as it becomes balanced.
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Plus Titans can't hit flyers.. overall I think people are just reacting to a sharp change in the meta, especially if they've never played Apocalypse before. Every unit always has a counter, rock-paper-scissors type. That's why I'm against banning certain units, when someone bans a unit, they create an unintended butterfly ripple effect.. that's why I say that it's better to play with all the rules then just some. All the rulesets are part of a larger ecosystem ;)
BTW I just saw a battle report where Be'lakor mind controlled the Eldar Revenant Titan.. so that's why I don't think banning character sheets is a good idea either. Without certain units in the meta, other units would absolutely run wild.
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Vulcan megabolters can't hit fliers? ;)
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I disagree with a direction y'all are going here...
So, due to greater and greater permissiveness and mix&matching with less restrictions, "invincible units" started to proliferate as the new "sharp edge" of army evolution. Most armies lacked effective tools to make a game out of it when faced with an essentially unkillable unit.
There's two ways you one could address this...
A. "De-escalate": make it so that the unkillable units can't exist
B. "Escalate": come out with something that can obliterate anything automatically, even these formerly unkillable units. (this is what GW is doing, whether intentionally or not).
Both might solve the problem on the surface, but there is a difference in terms of what happens after that.
with option A, games go back to what they were before.
with option, B, you get games like this (PLEASE watch this everyone):
http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/12/06/welcome-to-the-new-6th-edition/
Now, there is no competitive imbalance in this game in terms of who will win or lose the game. It was a very close game. But that's not the only metric we should be using to evaluate whether the Revenant titan is a desirable solution to the "unkillable unit" issue.
In this game, the Revenant killed both armies by itself. The only other model that was really relevant or did anything was Belakor, he possessed the Revenant to shoot at its own army. The other models could really have been anything, their only role was to get removed by the Revenant.
This game might have been (probably was) an extreme example. But can you see how, even if an extreme solution like D weapons solve a problem, it's possible that they might be a detriment to what we have been getting out of the game overall?
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aside:
I think that "non-degeneracy" was a key reason for why I originally started getting interested in 40k and less interested in Magic: The Gathering. I started to feel after a while that very few games of M:TG constructed were REAL GAMES. It was just sort of a contest of who could get their own broken thing off first. If you brought what you just thought was an "interesting" constructed deck, which didn't capitalize on some sort of recursive abusive mechanic, and you played against a competitive deck, you might not even get to cast any spells or do ANYTHING. If I'm going to put some free time into a game, I'd like there to be a really good chance that there'd be a lot of back-and-forth, nitty gritty, small conflicts that add up to a back-and-forth story - kind of like what happens in a well balanced board game, only with personalization.
It used to be that even if you brought a very fluffy army, you would at least usually get to move your stuff, shoot your cool models, kill some stuff, etc. You might get tabled in the end, but at least you got to PLAY a real game.
It seems like 40k has been getting less and less like that. It's not up to me of course, but I hope that the community comes together and forms a ruleset that makes tournaments more like tournaments more like they were before during 5th and early 6th.
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I saw the Frontline battle report, it was a terrible matchup to begin with. Read the comments on that link and you will see what I'm talking about.
Also the guys at Frontline didn't use anything from Stronghold Assault, both Escalation and Stronghold Assault are meant to be played together.
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40k has lacked the balance you are mentioning for a while.
From time to time, I'll play 40k against Rick. He will bring his tournament list (at the time I'm thinking his 5th edition Necrons) and I'll bring my fluffy Death Guard list. A fluffy Death Guard list (strictly subjective) contains a distinct lack of vehicles as Mortarion taught to rely on your bolter and battle brothers to see you through and Nurgle generally plays havoc on anything mechanical as rust and rot are not what an engine needs.
Guess who wins? The flying circus of Necrons.
Now the thing is, this is back when the Chaos codex got a buff by 6th edition. It only became a little closer when I brought dual heldrakes.
If I can bring Skabby to the table, I would feel better about those D weapons and even codex Eldar and codex Tau stuff. The worst thing Chaos has is heldrakes, a $74 flyer which competes with some of Chaos' best FOC choices, it's good but when it's gone, it's gone.
GW forced the escalation with codex creep. What I'm suggesting is that these new skew units might actually force a new meta direction. Skew lists can be bad but also can be beaten they also help shift the meta a bit and when the meta changes, it's not always a bad thing.
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Check out this review of Stronghold Assault.. looks like a lot of great combos to deal with SD Titans. Void Shield seems very cool. http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/12/stronghold-assault-wealth-of.html
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I haven't read stronhold assault yet, but it sounds like it has some interesting stuff. If it does improve the fortifications rules, that would be great, cause those rules were not very good.
But anyway... yeah... I'm sure that especially with the new expansions, you can take very specific things that will fight back at something like a Revenant Titan. That doesn't address the problem in my opinion. If you DON'T bring one of those specific things (like, you try to bring an army you built a couple of years ago out of the closet), your army just gets blown off the table in two turns. Didn't used to be that way.
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Also, chase, I did go to the MegaBattle last year. It was fun, but it's something TOTALLY different than regular games. In fact, I would call it less a game at all than an exhibition / organized model show-off. I mean there was the guy that brought the $2000 Eldar Phantom titan which never got to do anything, it showed up, "disappeared" when shot at (being a phantom), and then then game ended on turn 3. This was all OK because balanced gameplay isn't the point at an event like a MegaBattle. Even gameplay isn't really the point, because you're waiting for everyone else to go, you are only playing (moving models, rolling dice) for a very small percentage of the time you are there.
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I haven't read stronhold assault yet, but it sounds like it has some interesting stuff. If it does improve the fortifications rules, that would be great, cause those rules were not very good.
But anyway... yeah... I'm sure that especially with the new expansions, you can take very specific things that will fight back at something like a Revenant Titan. That doesn't address the problem in my opinion. If you DON'T bring one of those specific things (like, you try to bring an army you built a couple of years ago out of the closet), your army just gets blown off the table in two turns. Didn't used to be that way.
Yea I recommend you look at Stronghold Assault before making a final judgment, the real test will be what two armies both with d-weapons and a smattering of fortifications (and v-shields) will look like. V-shields can defend against Str D weapons!
GW is definitely a model company, and the way to sell models is to give it powerful rules. No disagreement there.
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......
There's two ways you one could address this...
A. "De-escalate": make it so that the unkillable units can't exist
B. "Escalate": come out with something that can obliterate anything automatically, even these formerly unkillable units. (this is what GW is doing, whether intentionally or not).
.....
I agree with basically everything Forsyth has said here.
I don't like playing screamerstars because they are unfun, not necessarily because I lose......I beat them often enough. But it's a dumb game that is random as hell.
I know that I will have even less fun against D weapons. It doesn't really matter if I wind up winning, I am quite sure that having to pick up whole units (and I really like big, expensive units) from one shot will be very unfun for me.
It may be a cure, but we avoid cures that are worse than the disease.
Please don't think that GW is putting out these books because they improve the game. First of all, GW has no idea what improves this game. But they're only doing this because no one was buying their $200 models.
I am very open to using Stronghold rules. At least some of these rules should have been in the main book to start with. But not anything from there with D weapons.
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http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/12/escalation-and-stronghold/#more-8688
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To start off, I HATE the idea of super heavies or anything "that big" being in 40K. It's stupid, in my opinion, and just a reason for GW to sell $100+ dollar tanks and models.
To give you an example, I am now seriously considering buying a Eldar titan. Damn you GW
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Unfortunately Stronghold Assault has been SOLD OUT at both BG locations :(
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This is the best review for both books that I've seen by far.. it explains why the forts are actually better and cheaper then the super heavies. The Void Shield Network gives you the ability to neutralize incoming Str D weapons, basically giving protection to your army like the Gungan Shield Generator from Star Wars.
See the in depth review and tactica here http://cadiascreed40k.blogspot.com/2013/12/escalation-and-stronghold-assault-game.html
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So....you're trying to sell is on it by invoking Jar-jar? :/
I don't much care that void shields balance out D weapons. D weapons just really shouldn't be a thing.
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So....you're trying to sell is on it by invoking Jar-jar? :/
I don't much care that void shields balance out D weapons. D weapons just really shouldn't be a thing.
I'm not selling anything dude, just trying to offer helpful advice. If you don't like the D weapons then go play warmachine. The game changes all the time, no point in complaining.
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So....you're trying to sell is on it by invoking Jar-jar? :/
I don't much care that void shields balance out D weapons. D weapons just really shouldn't be a thing.
I'm not selling anything dude, just trying to offer helpful advice. If you don't like the D weapons then go play warmachine. The game changes all the time, no point in complaining.
I'd have to disagree with this. Most people who play 40k have spent years and thousands of dollars on their armies and don't want to have to give it up in favor of another game because the rules have spiraled out of control.
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It's also just that the "escalating" is happening SO FAST. It makes it seem like buying any of these "problem fixing" models might not be the greatest investment, because next month something will come out that completely changes the landscape again. Coming back to the difference between a wargame and a CCG or video game. It's tough to say to one's self, "Oh Revenants seem good now, sure I'll drop $400 on it and spend the next month painting it. If in 6 months, they've invented Double-D weapons, which instantly remove all titans from the table, no big deal, I'll just buy the new Double-D cannon and switch to IG so I can play that instead."
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I can only speak for how the new changes will effect the meta, I can't speak on what players are personally going to do.. but people also had similar concerns about allies and flyers. I think the next logical step it just to play with it for the next few months and then make a decision.
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OK, I've read through Stronghold Assault now...
Some thoughts:
1. This book makes buildings make so much more sense. I think that everyone should immediately start using the building rules from this book to cover the aegis lines, bastions, skyshield landing pads, etc. Honestly buildings before this book were a half-baked ruleset and I bet if you went to 20 game stores and saw how people were treating a blast landing on top of a unit on top of a bastion's battlements, you'd see them play it 10 different ways (does the building get hit? can battlements be damaged without the main building being damaged? etc). And let's not even start with the Skyshield pad.
2. The new fortifications (Firestorm REdoubt etc) have different rules with fewer holes in them (and more options) here. The redoubt actually says that 6 people can fire out of the 3" wide firepoint... makes a lot more sense than just treating it as a normal firepoint.
3. I don't think this book does anything to mitigate D weapons. Void shields won't do anything to stop D weapons. All you need to remove a void shield is to glance av12. So, you shoot an autocannon at it or something, the shield goes down, and THEN you shoot your D weapon. So you're spending 25 pts or so to make someone burn enough firepower to glance av12 once, that's all.
Basically, I love this book, except for the D Weapons. Nothing else in here screams "scary" to me, and it's all useful.
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3. I don't think this book does anything to mitigate D weapons. Void shields won't do anything to stop D weapons. All you need to remove a void shield is to glance av12. So, you shoot an autocannon at it or something, the shield goes down, and THEN you shoot your D weapon. So you're spending 25 pts or so to make someone burn enough firepower to glance av12 once, that's all.
Basically, I love this book, except for the D Weapons. Nothing else in here screams "scary" to me, and it's all useful.
Keep in mind two things
1) You can buy the Void Network and get 3 generators, each generator can power 3 shields. So that's 9 shields total that a player can field, for about 1/3 the cost of a titan. I think the shields can overlap too.
2) If someone is bringing a titan with D weapons, how many autocannons do you really think they'll be able to field? Especially in a 1850 point game, they'll have a titan and like 2 squads lol. Points cost and model count still have to be taken into effect.
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I can only speak for how the new changes will effect the meta, I can't speak on what players are personally going to do.. but people also had similar concerns about allies and flyers. I think the next logical step it just to play with it for the next few months and then make a decision.
Yeah? I STILL don't think flyers were a good idea. But this is way more half-assed than that.
OK, I've read through Stronghold Assault now...
Again, I find myself of one mind with Matt on this.
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Seeing as everything listed in Escalation and Stronghold are "Optional" in a permissive ruleset, the sky isn't falling, and this won't change most games. It's really not that big a deal.
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Play a couple games against Str D and get back to me. I'm about 90% on both Matts singing a different tune after the fact.
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Play a couple games against Str D and get back to me. I'm about 90% on both Matts singing a different tune after the fact.
Don't get me wrong, Apoc games, or games with Lords of War are fun and I enjoy giant metal machines of death. I'm saying that Escalation is optional and no tournament is going to use it as part of a normal game of 40k.
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Play a couple games against Str D and get back to me. I'm about 90% on both Matts singing a different tune after the fact.
Don't get me wrong, Apoc games, or games with Lords of War are fun and I enjoy giant metal machines of death. I'm saying that Escalation is optional and no tournament is going to use it as part of a normal game of 40k.
Really? Because that's not what a lot of other people seem to be trying to tell me. I have no objection to it existing as an optional expansion, same way I have no problem with apocalypse (but I also have no interest in either). What I have a problem with is everyone telling me this is supposed to be part of "normal" 40k now.
And Chase, we all HAVE played with D weapons before. We've all played the smaller apocalypse games that only had one or two super heavies. I didn't like it. Anything that wasn't a super heavy felt pointless, there was no reason to take infantry at all beyond scoring.
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Play a couple games against Str D and get back to me. I'm about 90% on both Matts singing a different tune after the fact.
I suppose I will (maybe even at next BG tourney). But it's not like it's hard to understand what these weapons do. If one clips my Greater Unclean One (or anything else in my superheavy-less army), unless they roll a 1 to wound, he is removed from play.
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On the bright side of this it appears that the majot TOs are on the same page and should hopefully have some restrictions/guidlines done soon.
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Keep in mind two things
1) You can buy the Void Network and get 3 generators, each generator can power 3 shields. So that's 9 shields total that a player can field, for about 1/3 the cost of a titan. I think the shields can overlap too.
2) If someone is bringing a titan with D weapons, how many autocannons do you really think they'll be able to field? Especially in a 1850 point game, they'll have a titan and like 2 squads lol. Points cost and model count still have to be taken into effect.
I guess that if you bought 300 points worth of shield generators, and just clustered your entire army up underneath that area, it might stop a Revenant from killing everything underneath WITH ITS GUNS for 2 turns or so. Can you imagine playing a game like that? In your head does it seem fun?
Also, you'd have to make sure that you completely filled the area under the void shields with your guys. If you don't, the revenant will just jump 36" so that its toe sticks underneath one edge of the void shield, and now it doesn't need the shields to go down in order to blow up everything underneath with its 4 D blasts.
Maybe it's really just the revenant that is truly problematic? Eh... i think it's the D... and the Revenant is just making that really obvious since it brings more D than anything else.
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OK, I've read through Stronghold Assault now...
Some thoughts:
1. This book makes buildings make so much more sense. I think that everyone should immediately start using the building rules from this book to cover the aegis lines, bastions, skyshield landing pads, etc. Honestly buildings before this book were a half-baked ruleset and I bet if you went to 20 game stores and saw how people were treating a blast landing on top of a unit on top of a bastion's battlements, you'd see them play it 10 different ways (does the building get hit? can battlements be damaged without the main building being damaged? etc). And let's not even start with the Skyshield pad.
2. The new fortifications (Firestorm REdoubt etc) have different rules with fewer holes in them (and more options) here. The redoubt actually says that 6 people can fire out of the 3" wide firepoint... makes a lot more sense than just treating it as a normal firepoint.
3. I don't think this book does anything to mitigate D weapons. Void shields won't do anything to stop D weapons. All you need to remove a void shield is to glance av12. So, you shoot an autocannon at it or something, the shield goes down, and THEN you shoot your D weapon. So you're spending 25 pts or so to make someone burn enough firepower to glance av12 once, that's all.
Basically, I love this book, except for the D Weapons. Nothing else in here screams "scary" to me, and it's all useful.
More posts like this. I like hearing more from people reading the rules, citing examples and then commenting either way (good or bad). I really feel like this thread is a lot of knee jerk reaction venting and could use a little more analytical commentary. Thank you!
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Should this actually become dogs and cats living together it can be solved.
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/12/goaboys-monday-nonsense-i-dont-want-to.html
Makes many excellent points for improvement.
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Should this actually become dogs and cats living together it can be solved.
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/12/goaboys-monday-nonsense-i-dont-want-to.html
Makes many excellent points for improvement.
Lowering the points of a tournament to 1500 (as suggested in the above article) is a great idea. Not only does it mean less nasty things it also means the games go faster. Perhaps 1650.
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I keep reading the Harridan description and drooling.
Talk about ruling the skies.
The thing could easily blow up 3 stormravens in 1 turn.
- Fly over one, vector striking it at strength 10 - that's an average of 3 strength 10 hits.
- Shoot Bio - cannon at another, again an average of 3 strength 10 hits.
- Shoot 2nd bio - cannon at ANOTHER....
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Seeing as everything listed in Escalation and Stronghold are "Optional" in a permissive ruleset, the sky isn't falling, and this won't change most games. It's really not that big a deal.
It's optional on the FOC, same as elites or fast being optional.
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So, I HAVE read all the rules now.
Indeed, the problem is really Destroyer weapons, nothing else.
The "optional" building rules in stronghold, I really don't understand why they're the optional bit, they're really what the fortification rules should have been from the beginning. This is a big case where it should have been a FAQ, but GW thinks they get to charge you money for it. (hint, I didn't pay money for it, and I don't feel even a little guilty) I'm not sure I understand why all buildings should essentially come with assault ramps for free, now, but I also don't really have a problem with it.
All the new buildings and add-ons seem fine, too. (except the D weapons) The whole complexes...things that let you take 3 bastions, multiple aegis lines and guns, those seem a little silly. I don't mind those from a balance perspective, more just that it'd feel like I'm playing with my castle greyskull action set (tm).
I also have no problem with superheavies (though I think they are, almost without exception, kind of silly), just the D weapons.
In the end, I think we definitely should use the new building rules, and I'm fine with using the all the rest of it, as long as we convert D weapons to Str 10 AP1. I would also ban all the mega-blast type stuff, limit everything to large blast or smaller. (frisbee size damage templates are dumb)
I think it's fine to have more Str 10 in the game. There's a lot of Space marines on bikes, Iridium commanders, demon princes, et all, taht need to fear for their lives a bit more.
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D weapons are fine.
They're going to be in lots of events at Battleground.
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Why people care about Str D and not about all of the other ridiculous things in the game is beyond me.
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They do Chase they do... This one just happens to be extremely stupid and straight forward in banning.
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I care about the other ridiculous things too :)
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D weapons are fine.
They're going to be in lots of events at Battleground.
It really bothers me to hear you say that.
And why do you have a strong opinion on this, when you have had so little direct opinion on 40k rules, generally?
All the veteran gamers have played with D weapons before, Chase. We really do know what we're talking about.
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Escalation will have less of an impact, overall, than Codex: Tau Empire.
Odds that statement is accurate, greater or less than 90%?
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My over under is 80%
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That would really depend on how its handled. If escalation doesn't require opponent permission and is allowed in 2000 or higher tournaments then my vote is escalation. Particularly since it effects all armies
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D weapons are fine.
They're going to be in lots of events at Battleground.
It really bothers me to hear you say that.
And why do you have a strong opinion on this, when you have had so little direct opinion on 40k rules, generally?
All the veteran gamers have played with D weapons before, Chase. We really do know what we're talking about.
Actually Matt I tend to find the opposite. Chase is well versed (or tries to understand) in most rules yet he tends to let Sam work them out since he is TO. Everyone is entitled to an opinion on things including Chase. There will always be fluffy and off the wall events and I believe this is where his statememts were directed and not necessarilty directed at "our" version of competative tourny play.
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I have a strong opinion because I've seen these gross overreactions to D weapons every year for the past... 6 or so. They're always wrong. People always think they're some massive problem and will entirely warp the game, kill everything, ruin people's time, destroy the game, slash your tires, bang your girlfriend, and piss in your Cheerios.
It never happens.
The metagame needs to be shaken up. This is a great way to do that. Taking any superheavy is a massive risk that offers potential for massive reward. It's likely that lists will have to change based on the fact that they might have to face a particularly nasty one. This is all a good thing.
What we've got here is a few vocal people stating their opinion... which is probably little more than exactly that. Only a small percentage of the community has ever played with superheavies. VERY few have played in a normal sized game with or against one. I'd imagine no one has played in a tournament setting where superheavies have been allowed. Yet we've got people shouting gospel here as to why its automatically terrible.
Why? Because if it lives long enough to shoot it might kill a 800 point Paladin squad assuming they're ground pounding and all clustered up under a template? What's wrong with an 800ish point unit killing another 800ish point unit? How many things in the game can reasonably be expected to kill their points worth of stuff if they go unchecked? Probably quite a few.... How is a superheavy or a D weapon any different from the other hard to kill, efficient, high point cost "Deathstar" units? If someone takes a "Deathstar" unit in a world where Str D is a thing, aren't they taking the exact same risk as someone who takes a big tank or something? Is it okay if poor metagame choices get punished in a tournament setting? Is a superheavy a poor metagame choice in a tournament setting.....?
The Escalation book, which very few people bought and seem to know everything about (thanks!), is pretty good. The scenarios are cool and obviously factor in the big stuff, there's a couple of rules that help level the playing field also.
I don't see what the issue is.
Mountains out of molehills.
Apparently change, ESPECIALLY when GW is involved, is always a bad thing?
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It also depends upon venue. 2+ rerollables don't have much that much of an effect at BG, because very few players actually want to be "that guy", same thing with O'Vesa star. But lots of players love their eldar and tau armies (some people say Eldar is worse than Tau, even without the seer council) so you see that a lot, and that has more effect.
But y'know, at the big GTs, seer councils and screamer stars pretty well dominate. Even last tournament at BG I had to play someone using just fateweaver down to the 2+ rerolling (which is only about half as cheesy as a full screamerstar) and it was still pretty sucktastic and unfun.
1st and second place for Daboys was won by seer council. It won the invitational at NOVA. Probably would have won the open, too, except for some match-up luck.
2+ rerollables shouldn't be a thing. Neither should D weapons. I have a list of other stuff, but those two are pretty well at the top. I think characters joining riptides is a less of a problem, but if you want to ban that too, that's fine. I feel like I'm experienced enough at this game that I'm not really talking out of my butt.
If it influences you at all, Mike Brandt has indicated he's at least strongly considering banning 2+ rerollables in some way. It seems very unlikely that the big tournaments will be allowing escalation. (stronghold is a tougher call, because of the much superior building rules, without those, I'm sure no one would give it a second look).
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I have a strong opinion because I've seen these gross overreactions to D weapons every year for the past... 6 or so. They're always wrong. People always think they're some massive problem and will entirely warp the game, kill everything, ruin people's time, destroy the game, slash your tires, bang your girlfriend, and piss in your Cheerios.
It never happens.
....
Chase, I have no idea what you could be talking about. D weapons have never been part of the game outside of Apocalypse, so it seems be hard for people to be "wrong" about D weapons impact.....there's never been anything to be wrong about.
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Unless you know these same arguments were made in apoc? :)
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I've played in plenty of tournaments that allowed use of a super heavy. I ran my Pylon against a Baneblade and a Revenant Titan back in 5th in a 2500 point tournament and things were fine. There were only 6ish people in this tournament, and one guy didn't have any super heavies. He ran 2500 points of Salamanders specifically to kill them (and it was hilarious when he seized, dropped in, and exploded the Revenant Titan top of 1). Strength D worked slightly different, and so did superheavies, but overall I expect the experience to be similar with how it would be now. As long as there's not a Reaver or a Phantom on the other end of the table (in games under say 5,000 points), I don't see a problem (also note - none of those are in Escalation as approved for 40k use). The book even gives another Warlord traits table for your opponent to roll on and every trait on it gives the warlord + his/her unit a huge boost against super heavies.
I think only the thunderhawk, revenant titan, and flying gargantuans might end up being too disruptive for regular play, but guess how you find out? I'm looking forward to the next 1850 singles tournament at BG, I've got a Transcendant C'tan who'd like to shake hands with things and stuff. I agree 100% with Chase on this one, we're like e-besties now.
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D Weapons don't really matter for apocalypse games because nobody cares if apocalypse games are fair. The point is to show off a bunch of models, take pictures, and watch as many of them get blown up as possible within 12 hours. Anything that fast forwards the destruction is welcome.
Q1: What was the reason that GW originally came out with two sets of rules, one for Apocalypse and one for "normal" games?
Q2: Incorporating the answer to Q1 above, what is the likelihood that all rules originally intended for Apocalypse ALSO happen to be appropriate for regular games, without any changes?
We're stating our opinions, you're stating your opinion, ain't nothing wrong with that. It's a Forum, just like the Romans used to do, before they all got trampled by War Elephants.
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I've played in plenty of tournaments that allowed use of a super heavy. I ran my Pylon against a Baneblade and a Revenant Titan back in 5th in a 2500 point tournament and things were fine. There were only 6ish people in this tournament, and one guy didn't have any super heavies. He ran 2500 points of Salamanders specifically to kill them (and it was hilarious when he seized, dropped in, and exploded the Revenant Titan top of 1). Strength D worked slightly different, and so did superheavies, but overall I expect the experience to be similar with how it would be now. As long as there's not a Reaver or a Phantom on the other end of the table (in games under say 5,000 points), I don't see a problem (also note - none of those are in Escalation as approved for 40k use). The book even gives another Warlord traits table for your opponent to roll on and every trait on it gives the warlord + his/her unit a huge boost against super heavies.
Dude... i think I actually witnessed that tournament. Late night at TempleCon right? I was hanging around waiting for the "Meat Grinder" event to start. It was the first time I had ever seen any superheavies in person.
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It's my opinion that cherry picking what mechanics you want to ban and how you want to ban them isn't a good idea.
If the big GTs are planning to go that route, that's awesome for them. We're going to run at least 1 event every year using their rules. If it becomes generally accepted across all GTs, that's cool too. We're going to run "primer" events for at least 4 GTs each year.
Maybe we'll also adopt them for "standard format" tournaments (1850, nothing crazy). Who knows?
Tournaments in 2014 will go in a bit of a different direction than in the past. You'll see a lot more events that are "not for everyone" or "have more casual appeal" or maybe "are just different." Doubles will remain more or less the same but will almost definitely allow most things.
The game is big enough now that it can probably handle most everything, especially with allies, dataslates, and whatever allows Coteaz (or whatever his name is) to show up in just about every list.
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D Weapons don't really matter for apocalypse games because nobody cares if apocalypse games are fair.
I can assure you that this is not the case.
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Chase, any idea when BG will get in more Stronghold Assault books? I checked both stores and they already sold out.
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D Weapons don't really matter for apocalypse games because nobody cares if apocalypse games are fair.
I can assure you that this is not the case.
Actually, you're right, that is definitely incorrect :) I do remember the haggling preceding last year's MegaBattle.
Let me rephrase: Nobody SHOULD care, because apoc games always have been impossible to finish anyway (we got to turn 3 in ours with probably 85% of the models still remaining on the table when we had to go home), and when you have that much chaos going on, any 10 models' sudden disappearance would just be "lost in the noise". I do remember lots of people complaining about how all this unfair stuff happened (like the flank march and the strategy that destroyed all the orks coming on before they arrived), but in the end everyone was just like " well THAT was a megabattle" and went home happy.
I really don't think you could take the same philosophy and apply it to regular tournaments. Or you could, but it would take away a lot of what I find enjoyable in regular games.
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I've played in plenty of tournaments that allowed use of a super heavy. I ran my Pylon against a Baneblade and a Revenant Titan back in 5th in a 2500 point tournament and things were fine. There were only 6ish people in this tournament, and one guy didn't have any super heavies. He ran 2500 points of Salamanders specifically to kill them (and it was hilarious when he seized, dropped in, and exploded the Revenant Titan top of 1). Strength D worked slightly different, and so did superheavies, but overall I expect the experience to be similar with how it would be now. As long as there's not a Reaver or a Phantom on the other end of the table (in games under say 5,000 points), I don't see a problem (also note - none of those are in Escalation as approved for 40k use). The book even gives another Warlord traits table for your opponent to roll on and every trait on it gives the warlord + his/her unit a huge boost against super heavies.
Dude... i think I actually witnessed that tournament. Late night at TempleCon right? I was hanging around waiting for the "Meat Grinder" event to start. It was the first time I had ever seen any superheavies in person.
Haha, yeah it was at TempleCon like 3 years ago. The guy with the Revenant was so rage-faced. I played against a guy with an armored company list and won, went on the face the Salamander guy and lost (only because I'd played in the doubles event during the day and we were now well past 1am, forgot to shoot a few units which ended up costing me the game), and then played the Revenant guy round 3. The scenario made us deploy our super heavies, nothing else, and had nightfight. So basically he got to kill my pylon for free since he could deploy out of range and then jump in range. I killed all his troops so he couldn't win.
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Just wondering. How many people here have actually played with the new rules form the new books? Of those people how many of you have played more than one game with the new rules? My guess would be zero.
I say try it before complaining about it. I for one am excited to try both the new books. Will they work in tournaments? I dunno. I haven't played it yet. Will some people hate it? I'm sure they will. Will some people like it? I believe so. There just seems to be a lot of complaining here about rules that hardly if anyone has actually played a game with yet. I don't think cherry picking what you like or dislike is the way to go because you'll never find a set of rules/books/banned things that everyone agrees on. Just play the game and have fun. See what happens after a few games.
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Chase, you made the statement "People have complained about D weapons for 6 years, they were wrong"
What is that statement based on?
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It takes some outrageous douchebaggery to state on a store's forums that you pirated rules they sell. It takes an even larger amount to then say you're pleased with your actions.
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Tournaments in 2014 will go in a bit of a different direction than in the past. You'll see a lot more events that are "not for everyone" or "have more casual appeal" or maybe "are just different." Doubles will remain more or less the same but will almost definitely allow most things.
I like this idea. The whole playing an outdated completely uncompetetive army has really keep me away from BG 40K tournaments. This would probably force me to come play a couple (Tanksgiving, Monster Mash and Megabattle are awesome).
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Chase, any idea when BG will get in more Stronghold Assault books? I checked both stores and they already sold out.
Thursday.
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Just wondering. How many people here have actually played with the new rules form the new books? Of those people how many of you have played more than one game with the new rules? My guess would be zero.
Safe money is on you being right.
I saw one game here on Saturday night where they played 1850. One dude had a Warhound titan (it was gorgeous) and the other took an IG list that was pretty balanced in terms of comp. They played a mission where you got a VP for every hull point you took off the superheavy. The IG dude killed everything but the titan. He ended up losing with ~900-1000 points of models left on the table simply because the titan (which isn't in Escalation) has like 9 hull points. Only 2 or 3 of the hull points were removed at the end of the game because the void shields kept coming back.
Both players are very reasonable people and agreed that the Warhound wasn't oppressing. It's one game, but it echoes what lots of people have said after previous Megabattles.
I really, really think that superheavies will not usually be a good idea for competitive players playing competitive lists. MAYBE there will end up being one of them that is good enough and efficient enough to make it into some kind of "Deathstar" list (which is what ends up happening in most other skirmish games that have giant, point sink, all-in, type models). Only time will tell.... Or not because no one will play it for no good reason.
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Yeah, that was an apocalypse game where both people wanted to play Apocalypse. Not a 40k game where one guy wanted to play 40k, and the other guy wanted to play....apocalypse, I guess.
I don't like to play Apocalypse, that is well-informed opinion at this point. Just because apocalypse works amon people that want to play that, really has nothing to do with whether it's good for regular 40k or not.
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Yeah, that was an apocalypse game where both people wanted to play Apocalypse. Not a 40k game where one guy wanted to play 40k, and the other guy wanted to play....apocalypse, I guess.
Huh?
I thought it was an 1850 game where one person wanted to use a Warhound and the new rules in the Escalation book (because that's a thing now) and the other just played a pretty balanced list.
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This is a bad example to base anything off of. IG has a ton of low point models to kill, most every other army would lose 100's of points per shot from the titan some armies would lose quit a bit more. There needs to be a lot more testing done before we decide as a community if we should go forward with superheavies and D weapons in competitive play.
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The Warhound is not in the Escalation book, so I guess technically its still not legal yet (unless they release a data slate on it, which I'm sure they will), however the difference is not far off from the other legal units like the Stompa, Revenant, Terrasect Vault, Thunderhawk, Skull dude, etc.
Also in the Escalation book, they're not called superheavies, they're called "Lords of War"
Just to clarify any confusion ;)
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Does a Warhound have D weapons? And if so, what type? (I honestly don't know).
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This is a bad example to base anything off of. IG has a ton of low point models to kill, most every other army would lose 100's of points per shot from the titan some armies would lose quit a bit more. There needs to be a lot more testing done before we decide as a community if we should go forward with superheavies and D weapons in competitive play.
This isn't news dude, how is that any different then when the Tau codex got updated and players were forced to square off against 900 points of Crisis Suits and Riptides? In fact I bet some deepstiking Crisis teams can put some serious hurt on ANY titan.
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http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/567366.page
Lol the only thing the demon player could do was puppet master the titan to kill its own side
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So, as far as droppin' the D goes, a properly equipped Transcendent C'Tan seems nearly as good as a Revenant.
If you buy Transliminal Leap and Withering wave, you can
- make an 18" move. Anything you pass through takes a D hit
- shoot a hellstorm template (like a flamer template but 16" long and 5" wide at its widest), and everything underneath it takes a D hit.
- Also shoot another weapon somewhere else, for example, a 10" blast strength 9 AP 2 gun, or another Hellstorm template which is str 6 AP2.
If the C'Tan starts in the middle of the table and goes first, I could easily see it killing its points (about 800) on the alpha strike. The fat end of the template would be able to reach anywhere on the table except for the very corners.
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Interestingly the Thunderhawk might have a little bit of self-balancing built into it, in that it's a flyer, so it can't show up till turn 2 at the earliest. So the enemy is going to get at least 1 turn of facing off against basically half an army. If it doesn't arrive till turn 4, the army is kinda screwed. It's kind of like how it's scary to run flyers in the 500pt games, because it's just too horrible if the thing doesn't arrive in a timely manner.
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Here, I'll boil that video and post down for everyone:
"Man... this sucks! In order to accommodate a potential shift in the metagame I might have to think for a second or two."
Do you guys realize that the game is deep enough to handle pretty much anything at this point?
Who cares if 700 point models kill hundreds of points per turn. 700 points of other stuff would too. That's how the game works. "Good" units are capable of killing their cost in models every turn, given solid targets, right? What's the difference here? What's wrong with having to play around that fact?
How the hell is something that's likely to have a real impact on the metagame BAD for 40k right now? I really don't understand why people aren't excited about this.
Game planning for a superheavy + whatever else you might see has got to be awesome. Lists will change, new things will become decent, players will have to risk things. It could be potentially amazing and very exciting simply because they MIGHT show up.
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Chase, it doesn't come down to models killing their points worth. This game is about position and timing. Being able to move 36 inches and have 4 shots with a pie plate that instant gibs everything under it except for a vehicle on a role of one takes nearly all strategy out of the game. Either I play a drop army and hope I survive turn one or I play a titan and hope to go first to kill their titan before mine dies. Bottom line is you cannot get away from that model. The video may not be their best but these are the people responsible for nearly all major tournaments on the west coast.
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Yeah, that was an apocalypse game where both people wanted to play Apocalypse. Not a 40k game where one guy wanted to play 40k, and the other guy wanted to play....apocalypse, I guess.
Huh?
I thought it was an 1850 game where one person wanted to use a Warhound and the new rules in the Escalation book (because that's a thing now) and the other just played a pretty balanced list.
Whatever you were describing, if it had a warhound titan, it wasn't Escalation.
You seem very gung ho about this, but it also feels like you don't have a very large frame of reference. We've all played with D weapons before, we are NOT saying it's bad idea out of ignorance.
Look, if you have a tournament with Escalation it's possible it will work ok because not too many people actually feel like showing up with D-weapons...same way the tournaments work OK because not too many people show up with crazy FW stuff like thud guns. But if 3 people showed up with thud guns, I'm pretty cure you're not going to have a good time, and if someone shows up with a revenant, we're really not going to have a good time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynxPshq8ERo
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That's fair, especially because Str D ignores cover (all saves). You're not realistically going to be able to out maneuver something with a 60 inch range.
It (they) will definitely require people to take lists that are different than normal. An "all comers" list, which probably doesn't exist anymore anyways, certainly won't exist. At a large tournament you'll have to hop to dodge the Revenant. Most of the others aren't nearly as "bad."
You guys wouldn't enjoy the challenge of building and testing against something like a Revenant?
Is the game currently a "skill always wins out" type of thing? Is it okay if it shifts from that? Magic, the most popular and most competitive "hobby game," get criticized all the time because it's becoming more "noob friendly." Sometimes the power level of the cards can just beat a superior player.
Magic has grown rapidly year after year after year.
Is it cool that veteran players can lose against something like a Revenant Titan taking their "same old list" even if the Revenant's pilot sucks? Well, it depends on who you ask. Some think it's awesome and some think it sucks. Will it drive some people away from events? Sure. Will it attract people? Sure.
It is what it is. It's different. Is the Revenant okay? Maybe. Why not play and find out?
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You seem very gung ho about this, but it also feels like you don't have a very large frame of reference.
I can promise you that my frame of reference for people whining and crying about D weapons is larger than you can possibly imagine.
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Who cares if 700 point models kill hundreds of points per turn. 700 points of other stuff would too. That's how the game works. "Good" units are capable of killing their cost in models every turn, given solid targets, right? What's the difference here? What's wrong with having to play around that fact?
Hmm, my post wasn't really a complaint, just an observation.
But, to follow up, no, it is very unusual for any unit to be able to kill its points worth of the enemy on the first turn given normal deployment. If you think about it, that would mean that if you go first, your 1850 points kills the opponent's 1850 points and you win.
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Interestingly the Thunderhawk might have a little bit of self-balancing built into it, in that it's a flyer, so it can't show up till turn 2 at the earliest. So the enemy is going to get at least 1 turn of facing off against basically half an army. If it doesn't arrive till turn 4, the army is kinda screwed. It's kind of like how it's scary to run flyers in the 500pt games, because it's just too horrible if the thing doesn't arrive in a timely manner.
The Thunderhawk will smoke the Revenant, since the Revenant can't hit flyers.
I believe Stronghold Assault also has a comms relay, so you can get +1 to reserves.
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Anyhow, I'm done wasting my time with this. There's a clear difference of opinion and that's fine.
There will be events where we allow Escalation. There will be normal events where we allow all of the Forgeworld stuff. I'm inviting everyone who doesn't want to play in a tournament where superheavies are allowed to not show up. No big deal. Not every event is for every player. It's okay.
:)
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I have many things to say on this, but here's the salient point that other people might actually care about.
The more source material that is allowed, the harder it is to design events that present an illusion of being fair.
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Anyhow, I'm done wasting my time with this. There's a clear difference of opinion and that's fine.
There will be events where we allow Escalation. There will be normal events where we allow all of the Forgeworld stuff. I'm inviting everyone who doesn't want to play in a tournament where superheavies are allowed to not show up. No big deal. Not every event is for every player. It's okay.
:)
I was waiting for this. As the song goes I did not start the fire
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Yea we've pretty much beat the topic to death, and I look forward to blowing up everyone's Revenant titan!!! 8)
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You guys wouldn't enjoy the challenge of building and testing against something like a Revenant?
I really wouldn't. Kinda my point.
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Here, I'll boil that video and post down for everyone:
"Man... this sucks! In order to accommodate a potential shift in the metagame I might have to think for a second or two."
Do you guys realize that the game is deep enough to handle pretty much anything at this point?
Who cares if 700 point models kill hundreds of points per turn. 700 points of other stuff would too. That's how the game works. "Good" units are capable of killing their cost in models every turn, given solid targets, right? What's the difference here? What's wrong with having to play around that fact?
How the hell is something that's likely to have a real impact on the metagame BAD for 40k right now? I really don't understand why people aren't excited about this.
Game planning for a superheavy + whatever else you might see has got to be awesome. Lists will change, new things will become decent, players will have to risk things. It could be potentially amazing and very exciting simply because they MIGHT show up.
I love Chase. And lamp....
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This thread might see my thunderhawk being built.
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Here, I'll boil that video and post down for everyone:
"Man... this sucks! In order to accommodate a potential shift in the metagame I might have to think for a second or two."
Do you guys realize that the game is deep enough to handle pretty much anything at this point?
Who cares if 700 point models kill hundreds of points per turn. 700 points of other stuff would too. That's how the game works. "Good" units are capable of killing their cost in models every turn, given solid targets, right? What's the difference here? What's wrong with having to play around that fact?
How the hell is something that's likely to have a real impact on the metagame BAD for 40k right now? I really don't understand why people aren't excited about this.
Game planning for a superheavy + whatever else you might see has got to be awesome. Lists will change, new things will become decent, players will have to risk things. It could be potentially amazing and very exciting simply because they MIGHT show up.
I love Chase. And lamp....
I second this but I don't know who lamp is lol
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This thread might see my thunderhawk being built.
This needs a like button
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My Only issue with Escalation is the fact it makes me want to buy a Thunderhawk cause I could actually use it. Other than that OMG I can do some super silly shit.
4 Storm Talons. 2 Storm Ravens. 1 Thunderhawk. All rolling onto the table at the same time. :3
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My Only issue with Escalation is the fact it makes me want to buy a Thunderhawk cause I could actually use it. Other than that OMG I can do some super silly shit.
Same feeling. Now that I have a real reason to buy a titan, I might just take the plunge.
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The D weapons are tough but no more OP than a unit with rerollable 2++. They will just take some getting use to. In low point games they will be a non-issue and in higher point games people will now have to prepare for them. If you like running ridiculous 800+pt deathstars that were nearly invincible you may want to change your strategy. Now players with weaker armies can actually compete. Personally I think it will be fine. It adds a whole new dynamic to the game and people will get used to it.
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i spike thunder hawks that are not mine
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4 Storm Talons. 2 Storm Ravens. 1 Thunderhawk. All rolling onto the table at the same time. :3
I can't imagine it, because my Str D has killed everything else on Turn 1 and the game's over.
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4 Storm Talons. 2 Storm Ravens. 1 Thunderhawk. All rolling onto the table at the same time. :3
I can't imagine it, because my Str D has killed everything else on Turn 1 and the game's over.
That would be physically impossible if the player has more then two starting units. Plus I believe that the Thunderhawk can start the game on the board with the Skyshield via Stronghold Assault.
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You forgot to take Coteaz to help you go first.
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Now we're talking ;)
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I just want to say, I know that a lot of what I've been saying could be seen as negative or complaining, but I'm really mostly excited about these new supplements. Superheavies are awesome, better building rules and huge forts are awesome. I have had ONE negative thing to see in the enormous sea of excitement, which is that I suspect D weapons will lead to games that aren't fun. Just me making a prediction.
However it turns out, I'll keep playin' to some extent (and will definitely keep paintin'). 40k is for craziness right now. When I want something non-crazy I'll try another game. If folks embrace D weapons, I'll D up too.
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I just want to say, I know that a lot of what I've been saying could be seen as negative or complaining, but I'm really mostly excited about these new supplements. Superheavies are awesome, better building rules and huge forts are awesome. I have had ONE negative thing to see in the enormous sea of excitement, which is that I suspect D weapons will lead to games that aren't fun. Just me making a prediction.
However it turns out, I'll keep playin' to some extent (and will definitely keep paintin'). 40k is for craziness right now. When I want something non-crazy I'll try another game. If folks embrace D weapons, I'll D up too.
Everyone wants the D.
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I just want to say, I know that a lot of what I've been saying could be seen as negative or complaining, but I'm really mostly excited about these new supplements. Superheavies are awesome, better building rules and huge forts are awesome. I have had ONE negative thing to see in the enormous sea of excitement, which is that I suspect D weapons will lead to games that aren't fun. Just me making a prediction.
However it turns out, I'll keep playin' to some extent (and will definitely keep paintin'). 40k is for craziness right now. When I want something non-crazy I'll try another game. If folks embrace D weapons, I'll D up too.
Everyone wants the D.
Gross.
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Does this mean the Slaaneshi Titan gets to come out and play!?!?
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Uh oh, that sounds kind of R-Rated... is it one of those giant Anime pinup models?
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I once ran a test battle of a Stompa versus 600 points of orks. Orks won in turn two. Damn thing didn't even explode properly.
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i alomost think they are going to do a bunch for everyone in plastic. maybe that is just wishing but the way things have been going i don't think so.