Battleground Games Forum
Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: Chase on January 20, 2014, 06:14:18 PM
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Had a long, interesting convo with my GW rep today. It was pretty insightful.
Here are some notes, in no particular order...
-GW is not concerning themselves with game balance or competitive play in any respect.
-GW is totally fine with TOs tweaking the rules to create a more balanced game in / for tournament settings. [Lots of talk about how GW tried the tournament scene and how independent TOs do a much, much better job. They'd rather let the TOs run events and tweak the rules to create game balance in a tournament / competitive setting.]
-Supplements aren't designed with game balance in mind. They are designed with fun / cool in mind. [He sighted FoB and what they did with the Escalation rules many, many times over the ~hour long convo.]
-Expect to see more movement towards giving players the opportunity to use the models they own in games of 40k.
-GW has no PR department. There will be no official announcement about any of this stuff or any article in WD. They'd like people like me to communicate this sort of thing and "steer" the community in whatever direction we'd like based on it.
-While the stock did drop 25% overnight, based on that report, he went on at length about how GW is a dividend company and is still going to be paying out it's dividends. Something about how 4 people own almost all of GW (stock), how profits on the whole are down (duh) but profit per dollar spent is way up (also duh). Blah Blah, this means little.
-Weekly releases, which most of us knew about.
-Weekly WD starting in Feb.
-Monthly 230+ page magazine.
-The people that write the rules often don't remember what they write. [Spoke about convos he's had or been involved in with writers or stories he's heard. Mentioned one instance of a guy asking one of the writers about a rule he wrote and the writer responded with something like, "yeah, that sounds cool. why don't you guys play it that way from now on."]
-Costs increase. They are not targeting everyone. They "are not going to open a GW store in Compton."
-They recognize they have priced new or potential players out of their games and plan to "address it."
-The term "gray beards" was used to compare GW gamers to model train guys. An older, wealthier, group that doesn't see a ton of new people entering the hobby.
-They view the ~$200 start up cost as something that will provide the average person with a month's worth of "entertainment," comparable to roughly 3 video games.
-The rep dislikes the fact that people that are not qualified to write articles on GWs financial situation, policies, or direction often write articles on the internet that people take as gospel.
-They want to sell models based on coolness factor, not on price tag. Cited an example where they reduced the price of WHFB cavalry models to 25 bucks (from 45) and there was absolutely no change in volume. (which, to be fair, IS a valid point. when it comes to lots of model miniatures, if people want it, they're going to buy it. at some point everyone will begin to consider price, but that number is different from person to person.)
There might be some more, but it's a holiday and I'm swamped in here.
EDIT:
-Mentioned how the Tau and Eldar books were mistakes in that they elevated expectations for the remaining 6th ed books. Said not to expect all (any) books to be quite on that level going forward. Mentioned how it's probably nice for "us" that the books were so strong. [brought up after i mentioned the tyranid book, escalation, dataslates.]
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A lot could be said about all this but none of it seem reassuring, even to a casual player with no tournament intentions. Although I will note that I almost started a Warriors of Chaos army because the Chaos Knights are a cheap unit to buy and many points to field, but reading forums and whatnot it seems like cavalry is not very good in this edition. And I'm sorry but if you don't like what unqualified people are saying about your company, get a PR department to say otherwise.
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hmmm a very interesting read thanks Chase!
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Well thanks for passing this along, Chase.
-GW is not concerning themselves with game balance or competitive play in any respect.
Well, we knew that. Problem is that it's awful.
-Supplements are designed with game balance in mind. They are designed with fun / cool in mind. [He sighted FoB and what they did with the Escalation rules many, many times over the ~hour long convo.]
I assume you mean *not* designed with ...... still awful
-They recognize they have priced new or potential players out of their games and plan to "address it."
Well, that's nice.
-They view the ~$200 start up cost as something that will provide the average person with a month's worth of "entertainment," comparable to roughly 3 video games.
It is SO not $200.
-They want to sell models based on coolness factor, not on price tag. Cited an example where they reduced the price of WHFB cavalry models to 25 bucks (from 45) and there was absolutely no change in volume. (which, to be fair, IS a valid point. when it comes to lots of model miniatures, if people want it, they're going to buy it. at some point everyone will begin to consider price, but that number is different from every person.)
But the problem is that I want to buy on price tag. We're talking about "price elasticity" (in demand) here. I'll grant for some things the price elasticity may be very low. But I know I didn't buy 2 riptides, because they were $86. I've said often that if they were $66, I would have bought 2. It's not that I don't have the money, so much as the price offends me. But then people went and bought $115 wriath knights, so what do I know. BUt those wraith knights are also largely why I didn't buy eldar modles to ally to my Tau....I've always liked wraithlords, but wraith knights make them sorta pointless. (and I think they're too big, too humanoid, and too expensive)
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I corrected a few typos. Sorry, was typing sort of fast'ish.
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-GW is not concerning themselves with game balance or competitive play in any respect.
Well, we knew that. Problem is that it's awful.
I think the nicest part is that I've now heard it directly from the horses mouth AND I was advised to pass it on.
Instead of being pretty damn sure they don't care, now we know for sure that this isn't a focus at all.
I wish this was common knowledge so the community could get to work on a generally accepted, comprehensive, "tournament" document.
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-GW is not concerning themselves with game balance or competitive play in any respect.
Well, we knew that. Problem is that it's awful.
I think the nicest part is that I've now heard it directly from the horses mouth AND I was advised to pass it on.
Instead of being pretty damn sure they don't care, now we know for sure that this isn't a focus at all.
I wish this was common knowledge so the community could get to work on a generally accepted, comprehensive, "tournament" document.
Yea, it does seem kinda necessary for game balance, and while I realize tournament play is not their concern, they should at least try to balance the game. Why would anyone be interested in playing a game the creators have no intention of balancing or caring at all how it is played, just how cool it looks. And I really think it sucks that they ask independent store owners to pass word along because they are too lazy? cheap? to have their own PR division. They restrict what you can stock shelves with, ban independent online sales, then ask you to send their word along. What's up with that.
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-GW is not concerning themselves with game balance or competitive play in any respect.
Well, we knew that. Problem is that it's awful.
I think the nicest part is that I've now heard it directly from the horses mouth AND I was advised to pass it on.
Instead of being pretty damn sure they don't care, now we know for sure that this isn't a focus at all.
I wish this was common knowledge so the community could get to work on a generally accepted, comprehensive, "tournament" document.
Sure, agreed. And if that's what it takes for people to finally be on board with rewriting things, then great.
Though, if it's not balanced for competitive play, it's not balanced for casual play either, is it? It doesn't matter what he takes, my ork buddy can't really beat my tau, and that's with just a plain jane, not min maxed list.
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I'd definitely prefer it be otherwise. Like, how tough would it be for Jervis or whoever is the top dog designer guy to write a little blurb in a White Dwarf or for the website or something explaining exactly what it is that they're trying to do?
I'm just happy to have heard it.
Really, it just reinforces what we've been trying to do for a long time. Tweak events (tournaments and otherwise) to our liking and to our community. We try to give all sorts of players the opportunity to get together and play in an organized environment. Maybe I need to give players more of an opportunity to get together and in an unorganized environment that's not on Thursdays.
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Though, if it's not balanced for competitive play, it's not balanced for casual play either, is it? It doesn't matter what he takes, my ork buddy can't really beat my tau, and that's with just a plain jane, not min maxed list.
I agree that it's an issue. Balancing from the top down has ALWAYS been the best approach, but apparently they don't care very much.
I do believe the stuff gets playtested a small amount, but it's probably not by anyone outside of the group dreaming up cool shit.
It's interesting that you mentioned Orks. One of the "events" he was telling me about involved people taking a 10 man squad of whatever (presumably with a point cap or FoC restriction, he took Sternguard) and pitting it against 100 Ork boys to see how many the 10 man squad could kill before it was destroyed. Pretty cool. Not balanced, but pretty cool.
The difference between his group and the group of people that frequent this board is that they've got two completely different lines of thinking.
His group of guys thinks something like, "Awesome! I can't wait to see how my Salamander whatevers do!" or "This is BOSS! I've always wondered how many Orks my 10 man Immortal squad can kill on its own!"
Most people that read this board probably think something like, "I wonder what 10 man squad I can build that **IS** going to kill the 100 Orks."
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I want to play in his group.
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I want to play in his group.
I know you do. You're exactly the type of person GW is putting out models and rules for, Mr. D.
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I think this is stuff a lot of people had already figured out for themselves. I am glad that at least someone employed by GW is being honest about it.
That being said, I don't think this is going to work out for them. I'm not sure there's much difference between "an imbalanced game" and "a crappy game". I'm amazed that anyone who publishes games doesn't understand the fundamental interdependence between balance (thinking that, if you play well, your guys have a good chance to pull it out) and fun. They are not opposites, they reinforce each other. That's why it's called "a game" and not, I don't know, "a diorama"?
Frankly, it makes me really mad that they have these people writing the rules and just basically laughing at the people who try to play with them. They are charging $50 for a codex and they they spent so little time on it they literally don't even REMEMBER what they wrote?
I'm out.
Privateer Press literally has the exact opposite take on every single thing you wrote here. I mean, for chrissakes, they actually RUN THEIR OWN TOURNAMENTS!
By, "I'm out", I mean, I'm gonna go to 500pt tourneys and team tourneys, for as long as my models can continue to function. But my model budget is going to Privateer henceforth.
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Oh, and, thanks for letting us players know about this, Chase!
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^ this ( the longer post). I agree on every single point.
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Expect to see more movement towards giving players the opportunity to use the models they own in games of 40k.
I'm unclear what this means. I can use my models currently (and lose).
The people that write the rules often don't remember what they write.
That's really not good. We can remember them all when we play.
They view the ~$200 start up cost as something that will provide the average person with a month's worth of "entertainment," comparable to roughly 3 video games.
This is a joke, right? I've been buying video games for a long time at less than $20, and most recently for less than $5. Maybe I'm not the target audience for GW, the spend-hundreds must-have-new-shiny player. But they clearly don't know what the entertainment market is like now, if they think $200 is even close.
The rep dislikes the fact that people that are not qualified to write articles on GWs financial situation, policies, or direction often write articles on the internet that people take as gospel.
Then maybe they should get a PR department.
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Thanks for sharing.
It's nice to know GW officially gives no sh*ts about their game.
Also it's a dividend company, I bet they'd like higher dividends which they'd get if they'd put in some effort.
As to their stock tanking:
They killed all internet sellers except via their website (doh!) Remember that one? Hilarious! It's almost like people want to buy things online with that internets.
And their supply chain is pathetic. How long did I have to wait on Riptides and Farsight shoulder pads?
Sell the consumer what they want when they want it. It's not the 1800's.
Hopefully they'll get it. If I welcome our new plastic mans overlords when the company gets bought and I really hope it does.
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Though, if it's not balanced for competitive play, it's not balanced for casual play either, is it? It doesn't matter what he takes, my ork buddy can't really beat my tau, and that's with just a plain jane, not min maxed list.
Most people that read this board probably think something like, "I wonder what 10 man squad I can build that **IS** going to kill the 100 Orks."
and these two statements explain why my enthusiasm has been nil for playing 40k since 6th dropped. and confirmation that they dont care tau and eldar blow the power curve kill the last hope i had of orks being fun again.
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Well, I'm the kind of guy that wonders what 10 men could kill the 100 orks. But, you and I want the same thing. I want the game to be balanced, you want the game to be balanced. I don't want to win just because Tau is my army....by the same token, I don't want to have to buy whatever the next hot army is just ot have a shot at winning a tournament.
Re Matt's points: I just can't take 40k seriously anymore. And now we have confirmation GW doesn't either. Rules matter, man. That's what makes it a game. Without good rules, we're just pushing models around and rolling dice.
I spent so much time obsessing about this game and I'm now realizing it was mostly pointless.
I spent about $220 bucks in two weeks on warmachine. No regrets. For a long while, I have regretted ANY money I spend on 40k outside of tournament admission.
Warmachine is expensive too (though not nearly so much), and I don't know if, once I get good at it, it will be everything I'm looking for. But I know just from reading their rules, their forums (run by them, and with honest to god rules rulings) that they at least respect their own game, and that they respect the people who want to buy their models and play it competitively.
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WMH was built from the ground up to be a tournament / competitive game. It grew up to fill in the void left by GW, who has not purposely built their game to be a tournament game.
They are both awesome.
40k didn't suddenly get 25% worse overnight. ;) People love it for all sorts of reasons, none more right than the other. A book or two in a row weren't great. The money-grab is more present than ever due to digital supplements. Fortunately, we don't have to pay any mind to them if we don't think they're cool or fun or whatever (I suppose this is less true with the Tyranid book, which seems to be coming around more and more each day).
[edit: It wouldn't shock me if both IG and Orks were VERY powerful books.]
Are we all a little worried about wtf GW is doing? Probably. Have they made any drastic changes? No, not really.
If people want to check out other games and systems, that's perfectly fine. It is my guess that most people who do will return to 40k for the same reasons they started into the hobby to begin with. Others will be psyched that they tried something new and liked it a lot. Battleground will respond in a way that tries to best service what we feel the community wants. If that means a more diverse event schedule, that's fine. If it means taking on new product lines, that's fine too.
Both stores have a lot of WMH stuff, although Plainville is probably a lot lighter than it should be currently. If WMH is the alternative people are looking towards, feel free to shoot me an email or PM and I'll help you as best I can.
It's my opinion that 40k and WHFB are the two coolest miniature war games out there today, but if people disagree that's okay. It's just a shame they totally messed up MechWarrior Clix and D&D minis. :/
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It's my opinion that 40k and WHFB are the two coolest miniature war games out there today, but if people disagree that's okay. It's just a shame they totally messed up MechWarrior Clix and D&D minis. :/
Thanks for posting all this information Chase...the insight is important. I agree with your above sentiment. Wish I liked WMH more...to me it plays like a gimmicky card game where the whole objective is to let loose some powerful combo rather than feeling like a tactical game.
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Maybe a good idea to post it on Dakka let the world know.
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Thanks Chase for the update. You are awesome. Just wanted to say that.
I really am getting frustrated with all the GW hate and can't wait for these forums to be about the game and not about the company.
The reason I love 40k and will keep playing it really comes down to one thing. The 40k universe! GW has created such an amazing world with so much lore and story and as far as I have seen very few other companies have come close to emulating this. The only two exceptions to this is Star Wars and Lord of the Rings which are pretty amazing in their own right and I'm a HUGE fan of both of them. While I'm sure the games of Warmachine/Hordes is actually a lot of fun and Privateer Press has been doing an amazing job of crafting game rules, the world that WM/H takes place in doesn't come close to 40k in terms of engagement and excitement. The 40k fluff is amazing and there is something for everyone. The world is so huge(10K+ years over the span of an entire galaxy) that there is an infinite number of stories that could be told. I'm currently working on a Tanith 1st IG army just because of my fandom for the Gaunts Ghosts books. I've never actually played IG and a Tanith 1st list probably isn't all that "competitive" but that is not why I play. Maybe I am one of GW's target demographic where I play for fun with my friends and the rules be damned? perhaps. All the people who say that they are quitting 40k because GW is "ruining" the game have the right to their opinion and we've heard their opinions over and over and over again on these forums. But the rules for the game don't at all change the world the game is played in. Does it effect the tournament scene? Yes it does, but as everyone can tell TOs are modifying the rules for their events and per the rep GW is fine with that. Most of the problems that GW with the customer base is two things PR and Pricing. The fact that the rep said that they are looking at pricing is great news. Hopefully they will get with it on the PR side. I have to say that two years ago their marketing was non-existent. Not I get emails from them about once a week. That is a huge step for a company that doesn't have a history of doing ANY direct marketing. I agree with the rep that people are reading WAY TOO MUCH into their financial statements. 90% of people talking about GW financials online probably don't really know what they are talking about and people on forums and blogs are just making it worse.
Anyway Chase, I just want to again say thanks to you and BG staff for being awesome and for giving us a great place to play this game. I think that these updates from you are helpful and I hope that we can all get back to having "fun" playing again.
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Actually, it's funny... I've been reading some of the Warmachine fluff (like the stories and history in the Convergence of Cyriss army book, and the "spy reports" etc in No Quarter magazine) and I think it's vastly improved over where it was a few years ago when I last got curious. They are really working hard to flesh out the world, and to engage talented writers and artists. However, it takes a really long time to build up something to the level that the GW creative team has with the 40k universe.
The models production tech at Privateer is also a good 10 years behind GW quality (especially the plastic kits). But again, catching up and not nearly as bad as it used to be.
I don't think I'd have a bone to pick with GW's stance if they stopped charging for the rules. If they don't think rules are important, fine, do what some companies do release them as free pdf's. I think it's disrespectful to market something as a premium product and then ask the people selling the product to spread the word that they don't actually spend any time or money on the content therein.
My fantasy at this point is that GW gets bought by Hasbro, and Hasbro announces, "We will be handle R&D for Warhammer and Warhammer 40k the same way we do it for Magic: The Gathering". That would get me "back in" in a hurry.
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My fantasy at this point is that GW gets bought by Hasbro, and Hasbro announces, "We will be handle R&D for Warhammer and Warhammer 40k the same way we do it for Magic: The Gathering". That would get me "back in" in a hurry.
This would be lovely!
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Yeah, if you're into the 40k fluff, fine.....but then we get to where it pisses me off that they haven't advanced the storyline AT ALL the last few editions. In fact, it feels like they're specifically focusing on Horus Heresy they don't have to advance the current, 40k storyline.
There were hints in the GK codex about a "reset" button. I want that thing to go off. I want something to happen. The ebon Dragon to go nutso. A black crusade gets to Terra. Something.
Regarding charging for rules: PP books cost way less (usually ~$30 for a BIG book), you have the option to get them in paperback or hardcover, and in many ways the rules are free anyway, as each model includes it's rules on a card. (I really think they should just take the leap and offer free .pdfs, though, maybe sans-fluff, as I do strongly believe rules should be a loss leader -- but they're cheap enough it's hard to complain too much). That, and they take their own rules seriously. They are tight, technical, yet easy to understand. They playtest, and when a FAQ/errata is required they get on that, quick. There's none of this waiting 6-9 months to clear something up, or 4-5 years to rebalance something.
Compare that with GW, who charges way, way more for much crappier, frankly often slap-dash rules. The entire Inquisition codex was a copy and paste job, fer christ sakes!
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Maybe a good idea to post it on Dakka let the world know.
I'm not going to get involved with that level of drama. We all know there's more than enough fit throwing on these boards, of which I'm unfortunately a part of.
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I hope that we can all get back to having "fun" playing again.
Me too, dude. Me too.
Shit... maybe me MOST.
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Few points.
I hope this attitude regarding events balancing the game is spread out more. Fantasy guys accept that the game is terribly balanced and accept "Comp" to varying degrees, but 40k players go crazy when you mention it, or try to use it.
I will tell you guys one thing. I don't play 40k anymore. I stopped playing early last year after I could see what was happening with the game. I felt the same about Fantasy when 8th edition hit. When it first came out, it was fun for a bit, but when that wore off, there were some really big issues with the game. The US(north east mostly) and European players all agreed that changes were needed, different levels, different methods, but almost no one, barring midwest USA plays 8th edition "out of the box".
IF my only options were play 8th edition as GW wrote it. I would have sold my armies a long time ago.
As to the start up cost, GW seems to have no idea how much it actually costs to play the game.
I understand that people simply don't buy more models than they need, regardless of price. However, GW recently has a ton of new and cool models, that have TERRIBLE in game rules. Guess what, they don't sell.
I would gladly put in time to help come up with a common rules doc. or Comp rules for 40k if people would use it.
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Yes, please.
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If people from the community collaborate and develop some sweet tournament rules, BG will use them at least some of the time.
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Actually I'd help with that too, sounds fun. I love reading & thinking about & tweaking rules.
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Interesting....there are a couple rules that need clarification sure and I'm all for that. However, the part of the game I think is most concerning is the balance and not the many many ambiguous rules. I'm completely ignorant of how the comp and re-writing for WFB works, but are things like points cost and abilities actually adjusted as well, or just things like no 2++ rerollable?
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The WHFB stuff is actually pretty cool. Here's an example of what they do:
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The WHFB stuff is actually pretty cool. Here's an example of what they do:
....apparently they do nothing? ;)
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DL the attachment. :)
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Why is the 40K community so set against Comp?
Here is a link to the Comp used in Sweden...does not seem out of line to me.
https://skydrive.live.com/view.aspx?cid=B4AC6A4695229773&resid=B4AC6A4695229773%21147&app=WordPdf&authkey=%21AK-PdD2uQUjH2ag&wdo=1
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DL the attachment. :)
If I was smart enough to do that I would have....but still don't know how...I click the paperclip and it does nothing!!! SMRT SMRT!
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Rules changes:
• Up to 2 Characters per unit can get "look out sir" against the following spells: Dwellers Below, Final Transmutation and Dreaded 13th. Normal requirements for Look Out, Sir! apply.
• BSBs can take all the equipment their unit type has access to as if they weren't BSBs. Wood Elf BSB can take kindreds and do not lose their longbow.
General Restrictions:
• All the Army building restrictions are applied only during the creation of the roster, and may be ignored during the game (for example, by joining characters to units or creating new units).
• The army lists allowed are those from any of the currently published GW Army Books, and The Legion of Azgorh from Tamurkhan. No other unit or army list may be used on the event.
• Special or Named Characters are not allowed.
• Fozzrik’s Folding Fortress may not be taken.
• Units cannot be more than 60 models nor 450 points. This does not apply to characters.
• All army sizes are 2400 pt, except when specifically stated in brackets.
Magic Restrictions:
• An army may use up to maximum 12 power dice during each magic phase
• A player can never use more than 5 power dice to cast a spell, no matter the source. For the Lore of Death and the Okkam's Mindrazor spell, this is lowered to 4 power dice.
• Apart from Winds of Magic, an army may only generate up to 2 additional Power or Dispel Dice per magic phase (including channelling). Any extra dice above this is discarded and lost.
Army Specific Restrictions:
• All army sizes are 2400 pt, except when specifically stated in brackets.
- Bretonnia
• Nothing
- Beastmen (2700)
• Maximum unit point cost is increased to 550
• Victory points achieved against Beastmen are decreased by 10%
• Units with Beastmen Ambush may alternatively deploy as if they had the Ambushers special rule. Beastlords and Wargors may be allocated to join such units, and will enter the game with the corresponding unit.
- Chaos Dwarfs
• K'daai Destroyer/War Machines/Hellcannon (max 1)/Chalice of Darkness/Sorceror-Prophet with Lore of Death, max 4
• Chalice of Darkness(counts as 2)/Death magic present in the army/Dispel Scroll, max 2
• Ashstorm and Flames of Azgorh can’t be cast with more than 4 Power Dice
- Dark Elves
• Shade models/Reaper Bolt Throwers (count as 5), max 30
• Dark Rider units, Characters on Dark Steed, max 3 each
• Each 5 (or fraction) Doomfire Warlock models/Supreme Sorceress with Lore of Death/Supreme Sorceress on mount/Sacrificial Dagger, max 2
- Daemons of Chaos
• Beast of Nurgle, max 8 models in total and 4 models per unit
• More than 4 Beast of Nurgle models present in the army/Skullcannon (max 1)/Nurgle BSB/Great Unclean One with Lore of Death, max 2
- Dwarfs
• Can generate up to 4 Dispel Dice per phase instead of 2
• Quarrelers/Thunderers, max 45 models
• Anvil/Grudge Thrower/Cannon/Organ Gun/2nd Bolt Thrower, max 4
• Anvil/Spelleater Rune/Spellbreaking Rune/Master Rune of Balance, max 2
- Empire
• Models with strength 4 shooting weapons, max 45
• Steam Tank/Crown of Command, max 1
• Each 3 (or fraction) Demigryph models after the first 2/Hellblaster Volleygun/Great Cannon/Stank Tank (counts as 2)/3rd Light Wizard, max 5
- High Elves
• Book of Hoeth/Banner of the World Dragon/Archmage with Lore of Death/2nd Frostheart Phoenix, max 1
• Star Dragon/2nd Frostheart Phoenix, max 1
• Models armed with shooting weapons (Eagle Claw Bolt Throwers count as 6 each), max 70
• Ellyrian Reaver units, max 3
- Lizardmen
• Scar-Veteran Saurus on Cold One/Each 3 (or fraction) Salamander models, max 3
• Becalming Cogitation/Dispel Scroll/Channeling Staff and Harmonic Convergence on the same model/Slann with Lore of Death (not including Wandering Deliberations), max 2
• Skink Skirmisher units/Terradon Rider units, max 7
- Ogre Kingdoms
• Gnoblar units, max 3
• Crown of Command/Ironblaster/Each 8 (or fraction) Mournfang Models, max 2
• 2nd Ironblaster/Lord Characters present in the army, max 1
• Hellheart/Dispel Scroll, max 1
- Orcs and Goblins (2500)
• Each 2 (or fraction) Fanatics/Each 2 (or fraction) Spear Chukka/Mangler Squig/Rock Lobba, max 7
- Skaven
• Rat Swarm units, Giant Rat units, Warlock Engineers, max 3 each
• Skaven Slaves, max 120 models
• Gutter Runners, max 2 units
• 2nd Warp-Lightning Cannon (counts as 2)/2nd Doomwheel/Hellpit Abomination (max 1)/Screaming Bell, max 2
• Doom Rocket/Brass Orb/Power Scroll/Screaming Bell, max 2
- Tomb Kings (2700)
• Victory points achieved against Tomb Kings (excluding bonus for Underdog Challenge, Banners, BSB and General) are decreased by 10%
• Skeleton Archers, max 80 models
• Maximum unit point cost is increased to 550
• Neferra's Scrolls of Mighty Incantations can't be taken by model with Lore of Death
- Vampire Counts
• Zombie, max 3 units and 120 models
• Spirit Host units/Hexwraith units (max 2)/Ethereal characters (max 2)/Cairn Wraith units, max 3
• Red Fury/Death Magic present in the army/More than 8 Crypt Horror models/More than 10 Hexwraith models, max 2
• Quickblood on Vampire Lord/2nd Lord Choice/Terrorgheist (max 1)/2nd Tomb Banshee, max 2
- Warriors of Chaos
• Chaos Chariots, max 3
• Daemon Prince/BSB on Daemonic Mount/Skullcrusher units/Chimera after the 1st, max 3
• Flying models (Chimera counts as 2), max 4
• Hellcannon/Lore of Death present in the army/Lore of Tzeentch present in the army, max 2
• Third Eye of Tzeentch/Talisman of Preservation/Armour of Destiny, max 1 on the same model
• Scaled Skin/Wizard level(s)/Daemon of Nurgle/Flying, max 2 on the same Daemon Prince
- Wood Elves (2500)
• Glade Guard models (excluding scouts), max 70
• All elves in the army have ASF (Wild Riders are Elves. This does not affect mounts)
• Casters may choose spells from any of the 8 Common Lores
• Forest Spirit's Ward Save is not negated by Magical Attacks
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I don't like comp because it hurts of hinders building certain kinds of armies. You can't go all mech, you can't take more than 1 blah or blah. I don't feel like this addresses the real problem. Why is taking more than 1 of unit "Blah" a problem and let's address that. Is it not priced enough, should it be AP3 instead of AP1, should it be nerfed and allow for a paid upgrade to make it how it is. I feel like the comp as these are listed are just a band aid. That's my two cents of course, but if I had to guess that might be why some people don't like it.
The one that drives me bonkers is "No Named Characters" I got into this game because of the story and the characters and Dark Angels were the chapter that got me into the game...trying playing that book with no characters and tell me how fun it is!
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I don't like comp because it hurts of hinders building certain kinds of armies. You can't go all mech, you can't take more than 1 blah or blah.
I agree. And I feel like in a lot of cases the comp is rather arbitrary based on the TO's personal preference.
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For fodder for thought I'll throw up the Rubric I've used for Pax east for the past two years.
Army Composition Start at 10 pts then adjusted for following, Caps at +25:
1 HQ choice +2pts
2 or more HQ choices +0
1 Named Character +0
More than 1 named Character -5pts for each named character past the first.
More than 1 AV 14 vehicle (such as a Land raider, or Monolith) -5 per each past 1
More than 2 Flyers -5 for each additional flyer.
No Flyers +5pts
More Troops than other force org slots +5 pts for each additional troops choice.
(example 5 troops, 1 Fast Attack, 1 Elite, 1 Heavy 1 HQ = +5 Pts)
More units than double troops choices (not counting HQ) -5 for each additional special choice.
(example 2 Troops, 2 Fast Attack, 2 Heavy = -5)
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Before we rewrite the rules to make 40k into a different game, shouldn't we try to have an event with everything laid out as is? Why not try a 3k tournament with everything allowed, (everything defined as codices, supplements, dataslates, escalation, and stronghold assault) as long as you have the rules and the models?
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Before we rewrite the rules to make 40k into a different game, shouldn't we try to have an event with everything laid out as is?
I'm a strong supporter of this.
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Before we rewrite the rules to make 40k into a different game, shouldn't we try to have an event with everything laid out as is?
I'm a strong supporter of this.
Me too!
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Before we rewrite the rules to make 40k into a different game, shouldn't we try to have an event with everything laid out as is?
I'm a strong supporter of this.
Me too!
because most folks may not have that many points of stuff?
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Before we rewrite the rules to make 40k into a different game, shouldn't we try to have an event with everything laid out as is?
I'm a strong supporter of this.
Me too!
because most folks may not have that many points of stuff?
First off, I think that's not true. And secondly, what motivation is there to get a solid 3k army with a lord of war and cool buildings if you never get a chance to use them? I feel like we should give it a whirl and see if it's fun before we go through a lot of work to make BG 40K.
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Before we rewrite the rules to make 40k into a different game, shouldn't we try to have an event with everything laid out as is?
I'm a strong supporter of this.
Me too!
because most folks may not have that many points of stuff?
I admit I've been playing for a while so I have plenty of stuff but I'm always finding that I can't play what I want to play because I run out of points and would love to try a larger point game.
But there is no reason we can't do 2000 or 1850 with the rules as written with all the added stuff. But I think this topic has been debated back and forth for a few months now so I don't want to open that whole can of worms again.
I know Chase has said that in 2014 there is going to be a mix of events. Some with more narrowed down restrictions and possibly comp(maybe) and others where we can all go crazy using any and all resources, and other events somewhere in the middle. I'm looking forward to it all.
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Before we rewrite the rules to make 40k into a different game, shouldn't we try to have an event with everything laid out as is?
I'm a strong supporter of this.
Me too!
because most folks may not have that many points of stuff?
First off, I think that's not true. And secondly, what motivation is there to get a solid 3k army with a lord of war and cool buildings if you never get a chance to use them? I feel like we should give it a whirl and see if it's fun before we go through a lot of work to make BG 40K.
This event should have an "all painted requirement".
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I don't like comp because it hurts of hinders building certain kinds of armies. You can't go all mech, you can't take more than 1 blah or blah.
I agree. And I feel like in a lot of cases the comp is rather arbitrary based on the TO's personal preference.
Fortunately for you, Chase has never played and Keith doesn't anymore! I can't think of anyone less biased.
Before we rewrite the rules to make 40k into a different game, shouldn't we try to have an event with everything laid out as is?
I'm a strong supporter of this.
But you are, this weekend!
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We can also do something like a $10.00 entrance fee so that people play for fun and not a crazy prize.
You know, 40k for 40k's sake.
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I don't like comp because it hurts of hinders building certain kinds of armies. You can't go all mech, you can't take more than 1 blah or blah. I don't feel like this addresses the real problem. Why is taking more than 1 of unit "Blah" a problem and let's address that. Is it not priced enough, should it be AP3 instead of AP1, should it be nerfed and allow for a paid upgrade to make it how it is. I feel like the comp as these are listed are just a band aid. That's my two cents of course, but if I had to guess that might be why some people don't like it.
The one that drives me bonkers is "No Named Characters" I got into this game because of the story and the characters and Dark Angels were the chapter that got me into the game...trying playing that book with no characters and tell me how fun it is!
Many times it is a lot easier to do restrictions because everyone still knows what everything does. Saying you can only have 2 riptides is a lot easier to do, because everyone knows what they are. Saying that suddenly bolters are AP2 for some tournament but then the next they are AP3 makes it a lot more confusing.
Swede comp for fantasy restricts nothing, but adds a soft score to affect the battle to balance things.
Being upset because you can't take your "themed" 4 riptide list doesn't mean shit. One would hope you appreciate that there are entire codexs that cannot hope to defeat that list.
the game is always better when both sides have a reasonable chance.
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Iknowiknowiknow...
We write a port of the 40k models to Warmachine rules!!!!
It would actually probably work really well, except for vehicles. Warmachine has no concept of transports. But then, neither does 40k 6th edition (Bam!).
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Before we rewrite the rules to make 40k into a different game, shouldn't we try to have an event with everything laid out as is? Why not try a 3k tournament with everything allowed, (everything defined as codices, supplements, dataslates, escalation, and stronghold assault) as long as you have the rules and the models?
Sure, I don't have a problem with this. It is just that when EVERY event is "as it is", many books have no chance.
I find it laughable that you are suggesting this, almost EVERY BG event is 40k AS IS. What you want is to try the newest stuff.
40k as is, and as it has been, is poorly balanced, and it is just getting worse.
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Iknowiknowiknow...
We write a port of the 40k models to Warmachine rules!!!!
It would actually probably work really well, except for vehicles. Warmachine has no concept of transports. But then, neither does 40k 6th edition (Bam!).
But then the game would just be matching combos and trying to pull them off.
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I don't like comp because it hurts of hinders building certain kinds of armies. You can't go all mech, you can't take more than 1 blah or blah.
I agree. And I feel like in a lot of cases the comp is rather arbitrary based on the TO's personal preference.
Fortunately for you, Chase has never played and Keith doesn't anymore! I can't think of anyone less biased.
The other issue is that typically, comp get better as time goes on. The first draft is rarely great, but as you get input from other sources it improves. It is a self correcting system.
If you never contribute, your opinions will not be noted.
Implementing comp can be difficult at first. But unless you just want to see taudar and demons ruling the tables for the next 2 years, it is a good idea to start somewhere.
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Iknowiknowiknow...
We write a port of the 40k models to Warmachine rules!!!!
It would actually probably work really well, except for vehicles. Warmachine has no concept of transports. But then, neither does 40k 6th edition (Bam!).
But then the game would just be matching combos and trying to pull them off.
Better than just picking the right codex.
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Iknowiknowiknow...
We write a port of the 40k models to Warmachine rules!!!!
It would actually probably work really well, except for vehicles. Warmachine has no concept of transports. But then, neither does 40k 6th edition (Bam!).
But then the game would just be matching combos and trying to pull them off.
Well, when we do the translation we could remove the existing combo's that give you a 2++ rerollable save in 40k, or the ones that give you a 1200pt unit that shoots 10 different targets and teleports every turn.
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Iknowiknowiknow...
We write a port of the 40k models to Warmachine rules!!!!
It would actually probably work really well, except for vehicles. Warmachine has no concept of transports. But then, neither does 40k 6th edition (Bam!).
But then the game would just be matching combos and trying to pull them off.
Better than just picking the right codex.
True. I agree with that...I would rather pick the right combo of figures rather than be screwed because of the book I chose (poor Dark Angels players :-\) That being said, WarmaHordes has a meta just like 40K...it is less about player skill than people assume it is and more about picking the proper units for your gimmick.
That being said, it is a game I've wanted to get into...sadly there is not one army that interests me a great deal due to the quality and look of the models.
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Before we rewrite the rules to make 40k into a different game, shouldn't we try to have an event with everything laid out as is? Why not try a 3k tournament with everything allowed, (everything defined as codices, supplements, dataslates, escalation, and stronghold assault) as long as you have the rules and the models?
Sure, I don't have a problem with this. It is just that when EVERY event is "as it is", many books have no chance.
I find it laughable that you are suggesting this, almost EVERY BG event is 40k AS IS. What you want is to try the newest stuff.
40k as is, and as it has been, is poorly balanced, and it is just getting worse.
I say we try it as is and adjust the points/missions accordingly because general consensus seems to be to ban certain books/units/slates/etc before viewing their actual impact. How many of you have even played with or against a Phantom or a Reaver?
And Matt, the very fact (which you pointed out in that thread) we are not using the building rules from Stronghold Assault means we're not playing with everything in. Though I think changing Strength D to s10 ap1 has a bigger impact on the tournament not really showing what happens when you've got the big boys on the table. That said, hopefully I'll have one of mine built and ready for some goofy action on Saturday.
I don't know that every tournament should have all these things at all times, but it would be nice to use these. Models in events 3-6 times a year instead of once. I like that BG does primer events for GTs and I don't see why they'd stop doing that.
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Rob, I really wish you would stop campaigning for Escalation/Stronghold/Str D. Most everyone else agrees it's a bad idea, it's like really, really obvious it's a bad idea, and part of the point of playing that game with you was to illustrate that. Yes, I do think you can tell how bad it is from just one game. At some point, you really started to sound like a proselytiser, and it's pretty bad. No, none of those things are the answer. (yeah, it solves 2++ rerollable but it causes like 27 other problems)
The rules are also just written poorly, borderline incomprehensibly. I guarantee you there's going to be no consensus tomorrow about how void shields work, and there wouldn't be any about Str D blasts if those existed either.
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They work exactly how I described in our game, however much you disagree.
I don't see why this concerns you anyways, you've said on this forum and others you'd rather make your own 40k or play Warmachine than play the game we have in front of us, so feel free to do that. This doesn't affect you at all, especially if you think everyone agrees with what you've been posting. It will only apply to people interested in an evolving meta based around what appears to be GWs new strategy.
So, we all know how you feel Matt. Just not all of us feel that way, and we'll continue to discuss our thoughts here as long as the good folks running BG don't mind.
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um.....I actualy do not care how Str D is handeled....so please dont think your speaking for every one.
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They work exactly how I described in our game, however much you disagree.
Haha, WHAT?!?!
First of all, I didn't even try to say that I DO know how either Str D or void shields are handled -- I have a favored interpretation, but it is in that realm of "clearly unclear". That's the problem.
Second of all, if you are trying to claim that there is only one valid interpretation (this applies to a 100 different GW rules, not just this one), and it's yours, that is clear bull___
I have never, with one statement, seen someone disqualify themselves from further purposeful debate so quickly before.
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Rob, I really wish you would stop campaigning for Escalation/Stronghold/Str D. Most everyone else agrees it's a bad idea, it's like really, really obvious it's a bad idea, and part of the point of playing that game with you was to illustrate that. Yes, I do think you can tell how bad it is from just one game. At some point, you really started to sound like a proselytiser, and it's pretty bad. No, none of those things are the answer. (yeah, it solves 2++ rerollable but it causes like 27 other problems)
The rules are also just written poorly, borderline incomprehensibly. I guarantee you there's going to be no consensus tomorrow about how void shields work, and there wouldn't be any about Str D blasts if those existed either.
Please don't speak for everyone. It is 100% NOT TRUE that everyone thinks these rules are bad. Rob has every right to talk about trying rules out as you do to talk about how much you think its "awful". Some of us actually want to play with all the rules as they are. If you don't want to do that just don't show up to that event okay?
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Well, let me amend "most everyone" to 80% according to the results from the NOVA poll.
http://the11thcompany.freeforums.org/ongoing-nova-open-40k-survey-results-discussion-t6434.html
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"80% of NOVA attendees" is probably most accurate.
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*Shrug* Recius reported similar #'s with his LVO poll. Maybe you can say 80% of "tournament goers", but that's the only # I care about -- not because if you don't do tournaments I don't care about you, but because it doesn't affect me -- you can play whatever you want on a random Sunday in your basement, or thursday at the store. This discussion about "what to play and how to play it" really is only relevant in regards to tournaments.
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They work exactly how I described in our game, however much you disagree.
Haha, WHAT?!?!
First of all, I didn't even try to say that I DO know how either Str D or void shields are handled -- I have a favored interpretation, but it is in that realm of "clearly unclear". That's the problem.
Second of all, if you are trying to claim that there is only one valid interpretation (this applies to a 100 different GW rules, not just this one), and it's yours, that is clear bull___
I have never, with one statement, seen someone disqualify themselves from further purposeful debate so quickly before.
When did I claim to say there is one valid interpretation to every GW rule? I did say that this one seems pretty clear. Why shouldn't we resolve hits from the D table the same way we resolve hits from the Haywire table?
If this is all you chose to comment on from my post, then I guess it pretty much fits the trend of you ignoring any meaningful discussion to keep hating on content you, personally, do not like.
The poll you posted is mostly worthless without knowing how many unique participants answered each question, and how much of the total 40k playerbase they represent.
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I'm till gonna buy dragon jets and space elves. This does not stop me. I like my space models killing my friends space models.
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Damn, dude. You're just kind of a dick, huh?
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Rob, it's not clear to me, it's not clear to a lot of people. (Like mike Brandt, or Neil Gilstrap)The fact that it's so clear to you is indicative of a sophomoric view. I contradicted one point because I don't have time to contradict every ridiculous thing you bring up.
Like calling poll worthless because you don't have the raw data. How many people do you think play this game? Only around 200 go to NOVA. The poll might've gone out to a few hundred people. You're not going to get anything statistically significant. Bringing that up was pointless.
You really jump to ad hominem attacks as soon as people go contrary to your belief, huh? You might want to take a chill pill, bro.
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I'm till gonna buy dragon jets and space elves. This does not stop me. I like my space models killing my friends space models.
Yup.
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I think Fantasy is more balanced from a unit perspective, because it's a lot more of a rock-paper-scissor system. Even the strongest units have weaknesses.
40k has certain units that are downright super powered nigh unkillable with almost no weakness, so spamming them is a no brainer. Units need to have weaknesses again if the game is to fun.
I don't see nearly as much spam in Fantasy as I do in 40k.
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There is a large difference between single day events near your home, and multi day GTs that you have to fly to.
They are very different things. Most GT goers do NOT want to spend 1-2k on a weekend and have a few STR D templates just remove their army in 25 minutes.
Playing at the gamestore? Do what you want.
Using the results of a GT poll to support an argument for a local event is not the best. But it is a similar one.
Do I want to go spend 9 hours at a game store just to have my army wrecked 3 times because it isn't good enough(NOTE: army, not list). There are a lot of other things I can do with my saturday.
I think many of us just want to go have some tactical games. Nothing is more frustrating than being blown away because your book is shitty.
This is one of the main reasons I stopped playing 40k. There were three options for how the game would play out. 1) Opponent cannot handle all my psychic power nids and I am able to just grind over them, 2) opponent had eldar/sw and could stop my psychic powers and the game is a struggle for me, 3) armies are balanced and it is a great game.
Option 3 happened like 10% of the time.
This is why most fantasy events comp the crazy game over spells.
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I think if one codex is allowed to ally with itself, then every codex should. Also every army should have great shooting units, it is a sci-fi game after all. Remember when Enhanced senses gave tyranids +1 BS? I have no idea why someone would take that away.
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Play the game you want to play.
Escalation and Strongpoint are add on rules much the same way as Apocalypse and Cities of Death...if you don't want to use them/ play against them then don't (I certainly have no interest in Escalation, Strongpoint, or Apocalypse games but that is me and I realize other people love the idea of these optional rules).
Tournaments and Events are going to decide what they want to do and if their rulings and inclusions are to your liking then sign up and have a great time (seems that across the internet Escalation is not going to be used in the large GTs).
If not then don't sign up. However, if you do sign up for an event do not complain about the rules or inclusions, don't complain about it...you could have said no or stayed home.
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Play the game you want to play.
Escalation and Strongpoint are add on rules much the same way as Apocalypse and Cities of Death...if you don't want to use them/ play against them then don't (I certainly have no interest in Escalation, Strongpoint, or Apocalypse games but that is me and I realize other people love the idea of these optional rules).
Tournaments and Events are going to decide what they want to do and if their rulings and inclusions are to your liking then sign up and have a great time (seems that across the internet Escalation is not going to be used in the large GTs).
If not then don't sign up. However, if you do sign up for an event do not complain about the rules or inclusions, don't complain about it...you could have said no or stayed home.
THIS
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I'll just say that, in the ETC rules Wood Elves get access to all rulebook magic powers.. even though in the army book they only get access to two. Maybe we will see similar comps with tyranids and psychic powers.
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I'll just say that, in the ETC rules Wood Elves get access to all rulebook magic powers.. even though in the army book they only get access to two. Maybe we will see similar comps with tyranids and psychic powers.
Haha... giving them access to Biomancy again would be a huge boost.
Seriously though, if I could pick one rule to change it would be Synapse/Instinctive behavior. I think it's a widely recognized principle of game design that you try to make everyone feel like they get something SPECIAL, rather than making players feel like they are struggling to overcome painful drawbacks in order to even function. Instinctive behavior should not make you run off the board. Synapse should consist of giving you a huge boost (like Fearless + Eternal warrior, the way it used to be) rather than improving your stuff from being "completely useless" to "just normal like every other army gets".
This isn't even a game balance thing really, it's a "taking the time to think about how the rules will feel when you actually play the game" thing... which is made vastly easier when you take the time to actually playtest rules.
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Yes I definitely agree, Synapse/Instinctive behavior feels like the old necron "we'll be back".. its stupid and needs to be revamped.
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I love you guys. Mad jokes.
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So this is what I am going to do in the future. I am going to use the Formation that lets me have a Stormraven and 2 Stormtalons. I am going to load it with 3 Assault Centurions and an Ironclad Dreadnought give them all Heavy Flamers and play Salamanders. Also going to have a Thunderhawk also with its Big Str D gun shooting shit Escorted by another Storm Talon. Hell lets have another Stormraven Escorted by a Stormtalon loaded with Salamander First Company with Thunder Hammers.
Why Cause its a bloody game and that is what I want to do. When you stop having fun it stops being a game and is more of a chore. That is literally what you guys are making this out to be. Name Calling, Insults, and General Intolerance to other people's views.
Yes the game is unbalanced but it is fun to just you know get out there and play for me. I love the comparison to Warmachine which I play Retribution for love the game lots of fun. But it is too small scale you get lets see about maybe 30 models on the table at a time. Combos dominate the game and maybe that is fine you get a really good set up with your Warcaster who works well with units she would take in the lore. 40k is about large armies duking it out against each other and slaughtering each other in the name of their Grimdark Ideals.
Its y2k all over again people everyone is running for the bunkers as the sky falls down. Cats and Dogs living together MASS HYSTERIA!! Calm Down and Game on. If you dont like the game as it is take a break come back in a couple of months after the dust has settled. There will be a table and Dice waiting for you. Don't ruin the table by flipping it out of rage at the moment.
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well spoken sir, in the end its all about beer and pretzels and having fun.
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There's really no good reason why it can't be a very competitive game with a rock solid ruleset AND be that beer and pretzels game people remember from a long time ago.
Here's one way to spin what's happened over the last 2ish years:
1) Change in release schedule / policy.
2) Finecast.
3) Price increases.
4) Edition change. Not great, not bad. Flyers. Allies.
5) Questionable Codex - Prices for those models increase
6) Fine Codex - Prices for those models increase.
7) Questionable supplements.
8. Terrible Codex - Prices for those models increase.
9) Even more questionable supplement.
10) Digital stuff...
11) RIDICULOUS CODEX - $85 model in standard game.
11.5) Model shortages
12) Supplements!!!!!!!!!
13) Great Codex - $115 model in standard game.
14) Apoc... Zzz...
15) Fine Codex
16) DIGITAL EVERYTHAAANG!
17) Str D in normal 40k
18) Digital shenanigans.
19) Questionable Codex - New kits average $60+
20) Stock tanks.
Not a great track record, but it is what it is. Plenty of people wish they'd respond to the vocal few (all of us), but they don't seem to care very much. Even the vast majority of the "vocal few" are fans first, and I'm sure GW knows that. People are buying up the $4, $12, $17, whatever digital stuff that is overall GARBAGE. They have the numbers, I'm positive their management / accountants / whoever aren't stupid. Making money comes first. Simple as that, I'd imagine.
It's easy to cry doom and gloom, but plenty of awesome has come out of 6th edition too. Most find the game is still fun to play almost all of the time. It allows for more models than ever to be included in a standard game. It's got at least 3 more dimensions to it than the previous edition(s?). The fluff is still cool. Content is coming out faster than ever. FW supplements are more bad ass than ever. The models are better than ever and easily, in my opinion, the best in the business. Tournament attendance (GT level) has been higher than ever. Exposure is at an all time high... Digital content... Blah blah...
It's been a controversial couple of months, that's all. Escalation, Stronghold Assault, the Tyranid book, and the annual report all didn't exactly blow people's hair back. If I were a betting man I'd imagine IG and Orks will both be great books and the doom and gloom will subside for a while.
VERY few people were complaining when they were gobbling up Tau + Eldar. The models are sick. The rules are sick.
People like a "little too much." People don't like "not quite enough." It's been like 6.5 months since we've had a little too much. People are hungry... and frustrated.
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Yea I think more good then bad came out of the mix, my favorite being the increased content rate. It's really nice to have a new codex every other month. I was originally impartial to dataslates, but if they're going to release subpar codices just to say "dont worry, we have a dataslate$ to fix it" then it becomes a problem. I don't really have a problem with LoW or Forts, but I can see why some people would want it to be separated, if for no other reason that they don't want to have to run out and buy a $500 titan just to be competitive.
I think the tip of the recent outrage iceberg was the new Tyranids, so much lost opportunity. They took away rulebook powers, drop pods, characters, units like Yrymral genestealers, didn't add a unit with skyfire like every other codex, didn't add old biomorphs, etc. A lot was either taken away or left out for no reason, which is where the bulk of the frustration is coming from in my opinion.
I still think GW makes the best rules, models and fluff compared to any other company. The Fantasy fluff is really good too, I love reading about Sigmar, Magnus the Pious, and pretty much all the elf factions. Just wish they had more creative developers.
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So you're telling me people don't think the D counts as "a little too much"?
And Loranus, I would love to play against that if you've got the models and the time. I've got some crazy Necron and Eldar things in mind, can't wait to use my big toys and now I've finally got motivation to paint them.
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1) Change in release schedule / policy.
2) Finecast.
3) Price increases.
4) Edition change. Not great, not bad. Flyers. Allies.
5) Questionable Codex - Prices for those models increase
6) Fine Codex - Prices for those models increase.
7) Questionable supplements.
8. Terrible Codex - Prices for those models increase.
9) Even more questionable supplement.
10) Digital stuff...
11) RIDICULOUS CODEX - $85 model in standard game.
11.5) Model shortages
12) Supplements!!!!!!!!!
13) Great Codex - $115 model in standard game.
14) Apoc... Zzz...
15) Fine Codex
16) DIGITAL EVERYTHAAANG!
17) Str D in normal 40k
18) Digital shenanigans.
19) Questionable Codex - New kits average $60+
20) Stock tanks.
That is like the best breakdown ever. A lot of people think eldar>Tau, though. (I actually don't agree, but it is a commonly held opinion)
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So this is what I am going to do in the future. I am going to use the Formation that lets me have a Stormraven and 2 Stormtalons. I am going to load it with 3 Assault Centurions and an Ironclad Dreadnought give them all Heavy Flamers and play Salamanders. Also going to have a Thunderhawk also with its Big Str D gun shooting shit Escorted by another Storm Talon. Hell lets have another Stormraven Escorted by a Stormtalon loaded with Salamander First Company with Thunder Hammers.
Why Cause its a bloody game and that is what I want to do. When you stop having fun it stops being a game and is more of a chore. That is literally what you guys are making this out to be. Name Calling, Insults, and General Intolerance to other people's views.
Yes the game is unbalanced but it is fun to just you know get out there and play for me. I love the comparison to Warmachine which I play Retribution for love the game lots of fun. But it is too small scale you get lets see about maybe 30 models on the table at a time. Combos dominate the game and maybe that is fine you get a really good set up with your Warcaster who works well with units she would take in the lore. 40k is about large armies duking it out against each other and slaughtering each other in the name of their Grimdark Ideals.
Its y2k all over again people everyone is running for the bunkers as the sky falls down. Cats and Dogs living together MASS HYSTERIA!! Calm Down and Game on. If you dont like the game as it is take a break come back in a couple of months after the dust has settled. There will be a table and Dice waiting for you. Don't ruin the table by flipping it out of rage at the moment.
A lot of us don't find it fun as is. If you do, great for you, you'll probably still like it with the changes put in place.
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The biggest reason I am let down by the nid codex is codex creep.
Demons, eldar and tau all came out last year and are top dog. When you are the blip down codex, you are fucked. Maybe not right now. Yet, if the codexs start getting "better" again, you will be up shit creek for years to come.
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http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/01/an-interesting-conversation-with-gw-rep.html
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Guess the word is out now lol
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Haha... who shared it???
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:-\
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Looks like I can't, shouldn't and won't be posting things like this in the future.
Here's hoping the rep doesn't get in trouble / the store's relationship with said rep isn't damaged.
/shrug
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Nicely done there. Just because someone posts something on the internet doesn't mean it is a good idea to e re-post elsewhere. The way something is written and worded for a local community on that communities site is not necessarily the way it should be posted for a much larger audience. Permission to re-post is a common courtesy.
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Chase - maybe take down the post? Then ask to have that one removed? I know its good for the community to see this stuff but if there is a chance its bad for the store then you need to protect your relationship with GW.
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Yeah if someone sent that to Faeit, would have been polite to ask Chase's consent.
On the other hand, this forum isn't password protected, and it sounds like the Rep specifically asked you to spread this information to your customer base, right Chase? If he asks you to distribute this info, and then he gets in trouble when the internet finds out about it, it's on him.
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I've been in touch with the guys at Natfka. They are taking down my name, the stores name, and the link to this thread.
I don't care if people see it / read it, I just don't want the rep to get in trouble or the store's relationship with him damaged. Those guys do read the same stuff you/we do.
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The way something is written and worded for a local community on that communities site is not necessarily the way it should be posted for a much larger audience. Permission to re-post is a common courtesy.
Exactly correct.
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Also, apparently it reads a lot worse to people that aren't me than it should. I actually thought it was a good, encouraging convo, for the most part.
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Huh. WIth the store/region removed, I don't think it will be that big a deal.
Anyway, no, I think most of us looked at it as a very discouraging set of statements, Chase. Like confirms your worst fears, stuff y'knew was true but really hoping wasn't.
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its interesting to see responces of people out side the store cumminity though
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I thought the post was rather encouraging myself.
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I thought it was fairly encouraging and I'm glad you posted it. I'm surprised they would post a direct link source for that and paste it verbatim, you would think they'd paraphrase.
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-GW is not concerning themselves with game balance or competitive play in any respect.
How is stuff like that encouraging?
I really don't understand you people.
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Right back at you, bud. 8)
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-GW is not concerning themselves with game balance or competitive play in any respect.
How is stuff like that encouraging?
I really don't understand you people.
Seriously dude. We all know your opinion. Please let us have ours without your constant negative comments.
Thanks
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Also, apparently it reads a lot worse to people that aren't me than it should. I actually thought it was a good, encouraging convo, for the most part.
eh, since I do not play Tau or Eldar, and knowing that GW does not care about balance...for me anyway, I do not think that is very encouraging.
Although, if as you forcasted, the Orks get a strong codex, I will be encouraged...but I am very pessimistic on that.
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Not to sound rude or anything but seeing this thread makes me happy that I started a club designed from the ground up for people who just like this game, despite its' alleged faults. It allows us to stay focused on playing, and generally we ignore "GW the Company" and stay focused on 40k.
I found it to be an encouraging conversation as well, but I suppose that is a matter or perspective. I don't really buy that the game is super broken ZOMG unfair like many people do -- it is simply a matter of the players. Netlisting also tends to fail hard at our club, so few people bother; the other lists are off meta variants so people rarely encounter what the internet deems the omnipresent threats, so by extension the omnipresent counters to those threats don't work out well.
People looking to play, and people looking to win, will never agree on the state of the game.
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Being a Tyranid player, if they release IG and Orks codexs as being strong, i will be very pissed off having to be stuck in the middle of all these codexs, I wont stop playing, and i surely will never stop bashing my numbers against all the bullets, but I will be sad. None of this will stop be from continuing to build my army bigger, I lover the models and I love the lore. I want to hit an obnoxious point number with my bugs and say it is a full Hive Fleet, not a splinter fleet. But that is my thoughts.
I dont care how much the stocks go down, or any of that, only hope they bring models they removed from my codex back in the supplements books.
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I think they will bring models back. Look at this Cypher was Missing all of 5th Edition. A guy people loved they had a model for and such a controversial sort of character in the 40k Lore. He came back in 6th edition. Tyrannic War Veterans came back in 6th Edition. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw more Old Characters pop up alongside everything else.
I have to say some of the worst matches I have played are against Tourney players. It is why I revel in the Player's Choice award at Battlegrounds for promoting positive play. Magic the Gathering was ruined for me by a bad Community that has absolutely driven me away from it in college. Battlegrounds has a great community and it was a lot of fun playing in the couple of Sealed tournaments I played in.
Games-Workshop will get my money for things that I think are awesome or cool. As long as the Community in the area is pleasant and Habitable I will come and play the game even if I lose 9/10 games. Like I said before I am going to show up with what I want to play. Will I make it the best it can. Ya I try too but it will still be what I want to play. Salamanders on Bikes wielding Master Crafted Thunder hammers Rocking out to Motorhead.
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Pat your a good man.
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-GW is not concerning themselves with game balance or competitive play in any respect.
How is stuff like that encouraging?
I really don't understand you people.
It's encouraging for two real reasons, in my opinion.
1) For the people that don't really care if the game is perfectly balanced, it reinforces the idea that they're primary focus is on cool models, cool "fluff," and allowing for "more cool stuff" to be on the table in "normal" games of 40k. I very much support this.
2) It greenlights the ultracompetitive crowd to start spitballing and figuring out how to take what they're given (GW rules) and turn it into what they want (tournament rules). The NOVA guys, the Adeption guys, even the west coast guys (who seem to like a different breed of 40k than the rest) and other clubs might get together to make the best of an otherwise no-so-great tournament situation. I very much support this.
Or maybe we're still in the area where any army can do well in the right hands and little will change?
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I like the west coast guys, finally other 40k players that are analyticly insane like me ;D
It definitely is cool that GW gave it's blessing to modify the game for competitive players. Maybe we will see new comps develop soon.
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My approach has been one of fault tolerance with my club up north and it's worked fairly well for us, so I am approaching events in much the same fashion -- look at the issues with others, and eliminate those things from being an issue. Akin to an old saying I once heard about smart men learning from their mistakes, but wise men learning from everyone's mistakes. Since we're gearing up for a lot of events in 2014 I'm paying particular attention to this whole idea as it pertains to event running.
First, you have to look at the issues. Then, you have to eliminate the possibility of those things being issues. Refine and repeat.
Right off rip you have two huge problems: "Super heavies/Strength D is bullshit!" crowd versus "Why can't I use my super heavies/strength D!" crowd. Easy fix -- some events allow the expansions, some don't. Theme goes a long way; a backstory to the event instead of three one-off daisy-chained missions gives a good reason why one thing might be in place and other things wouldn't. Theme is what makes certain things seem silly to take.
I could think of lots of crazy ideas for this:
- A tournament in which you have a sideboard army that uses the stuff from the expansions, for example, with a theme of calling for help). You could also ring a communal sideboard for a player; build a good couple of super heavies for the group's events and then simply pair people based on what they have, Strength D people fight Super Heavy people and people with neither fight other basic armies. The one mismatch, you give one of the guys the ringer bonus stuff to use.
- I've also seen you guys have some great success with bracketing; you could easily make some Lords of War-centered objectives that are in addition to the normal mission, and bracket players based on that.
- Invent up some ground level assets to use in the event that are as powerful as a super heavy might be, and then simply give those to players with no super heavy.
- Give slight advantages in-game to armies that choose not to use certain powerful elements of the game.
But that is addressing one big issue. Tournaments in general have other long-standing problems that I think need addressing at the fundamental level before approaching the thematic level.
The number one problem I see right off the bat is rubrics. Rubrics never keep up with the game, it changes too much and too severely (or should I say...the PERCEPTIONS of the game change too much and too severely). I did away with all rubric-based scoring of any kind for our events as far as sportsmanship or appearances go. Rubrics always have the writer's preference ingrained in them by hook or by crook, too, so this eliminates two potential problems instead of just one.
Some people will say, "what if the other guy zero scores me?" Simple: drop soft scores that are significantly different from the others and replace them with an average -- this is done by a computer algorithm, so no bias, just pure math. Get the average with the bad score, without the score, and with an average instead...check for X% difference...if the average with the bad score is greater than X% different then the average without it, use the one with the compromised one. Done all by computer automatically, of course.
Some people will then say it won't work because it's too subjective. What ISN'T subjective about a game of 40k? You could play a one-sided game against a super strong army and have the time of your life or you could play a total newb that you crush and it is the worst game you've ever played. The hard and fast numbers of winning and losing just don't fly on their own; the player experience (which is SUBJECTIVE player to player) should be taken into account. Once you do this you have players trying to have a good game, instead of just a successful one.
Soft scores can make a difference but we also don't want them to make too huge a difference otherwise a person who is wrongfully judged can get screwed, even if you use the clever math. But numbers don't lie. There are guys out there (a few on this forum :) ) who are going to hate these ideas because they unfairly make them lose due to soft score points. But when we sit down to play a game of 40k, it is about more than winning -- events should reflect this. And I'm sorry, but not every time you get a bunch of 1's and 2's in sportsmanship means the event was broken.
Just some free thinking and rambling here, don't mind me. :)
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Here's some more news:
So I am sure that many people will probably shoot holes through this and I was hesitant to post at all. With all the news surrounding Games Workshop over the last couple of weeks I think that it lines up fairly well. I was able to grab lunch with an old friend about a month ago who works for GW (not a local store croney). We talked everything GW and of course my drug of choice Warhammer Fantasy. He said that over the next coupel of months there would be drastic changes to the way GW does business...this was just in general. He didn't give me too many specifics, but now that the White Dwarf changes have hit the street openly and the news of a revamped website with FW product offerings and all it lines up. Once again he didnt come out and say that GW was going to be taking a hit with the earnings, but he stated that many of the changes had to do with new strategies to increase revenue and such. He has been traveling non-stop for new training and meetings, so it was easy to see something was coming down the pipe.
So on to my main point. I have always been a fantasy fanatic...game of choice hands down. He stated that there would be a new release which would change the way fantasy is currently played. Currently, the idea is to have huge blocks of infantry and high priced special characters and beasts which makes for higher costs to players and conceptually more revenue for GW. However this did not work fo rone reason or another. So it was obvious some changes were needed. The new approach will aim at bringing more people back into the game by making it smaller and more affordable. The new rule set would focus on making warhammer more of a small block and skirmish based game with fewer miniatures needed. The new box set would have less miniatures, but would basically set people up to get in the game and playing at a much reduced cost.
So he didnt give me the finer deatails that I would have liked, but he did say this would happen this summer for sure...not next year. He basically said that GW is being forced to make some changes due to some cash flow issues...which has become evident since we had lunch several weeks ago. It seems like he was pretty spot on so far with his vague statements...haha...take it as you will. But I have faith in this for many reasons. It seems with everything going on that it would line up well and make sense. GW needs a way to bring more people back intothe game while also doing soemthing to help bring fanatsy back up to strength.
So has anybody else heard anything similar or am I out here on a limb.
Original thread can be found here, but it sounds like both 40k and Fantasy will receive giant changes this summer http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?388436-Warhammer-Fantasy-Changes-on-the-Horizon
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Do I want to go spend 9 hours at a game store just to have my army wrecked 3 times because it isn't good enough(NOTE: army, not list). There are a lot of other things I can do with my saturday.
I think many of us just want to go have some tactical games. Nothing is more frustrating than being blown away because your book is shitty.
This is one of the main reasons I stopped playing 40k.
Keith I love your post and agree with these points whole-heartedly. Looking at the Templecon-prep results and wondering if I made the wrong decision skipping that event… seeing the army distribution tells me I did not. :-\
My opinion is just that, but right now the state of the game is certainly broken for me. For now, the best option seems to give Fantasy a shot and just wait and see how/if 40k changes as more and more books get released.
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I can't disagree with giving fantasy a shot, since that is the main game I play! ;)
But, I started to put in some minor changes to some things for 40k this year. I've always met with really strong resistance to comping 40k, so I don't. If the community would be willing to play games under some forms of comp. I am all for it.
I have almost 0 interest in playing GW's Warhammer fantasy though. Add in some community changes that have been evolving over the last 3 years and boom, you have a great game.
40k should do the same thing.