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Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: Chase on October 25, 2011, 02:06:41 AM

Title: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on October 25, 2011, 02:06:41 AM
(http://www.battlegroundgames.com/images/battleground_clearbkrd.png) (http://www.battlegroundgames.com/forum/index.php?board=6.0)


Battleground Games & Hobbies - Plainville

Format: Doubles (2v2) 1250 points per person
Date: May 26th, 2011 a Saturday
Time: Please be here no later than 10:00am. Set up at 10:30. Dice roll no later than 11:00am.
Entrance Fee: $20.00 per person / $40.00 per team

Address:
25 Taunton Street
Plainville MA 02762
508.316.1195

Find us on Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps/place?cid=16912922797021373545&q=battleground+games+and+hobbies&hl=en&gl=us)

Check out our Facebook Page (http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Abington-MA/Battleground-Games-Hobbies/68808440618)

Join our Mailing List (http://www.battlegroundgames.com/community_mailinglist.html)


Contact:
The event will be capped at 30 teams (60 players).

Please contact me at ChaseLaq@gmail.com to sign up if and only if you and your partner can commit to playing on May 26th. If you need help finding a partner please POST HERE (http://).


Registration is required to attend this event. These events fill up FAST. Please DO NOT hesitate to register your team.




**This event will be the THIRD in a series of Battleground 40k Invitational Qualifier Tournaments.  The Invitational will take place in December of 2012.**

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Battleground is supremely concerned with keeping our Doubles tournaments very fun, casual and appealing to all kinds of players and hobbyists.  With that said, we understand that by definition a tournament is competitive and we DO want that as well.  Due to the popularity of these events, we have altered the prize structure such that a larger percentage of the players involved receive prizes based on their accomplishments.  The awards are listed below.



RULES FOR WARHAMMER 40K TOURNAMENT

Rule Books:
The Warhammer 40,000 Fifth Edition Rules will be used.

The following is a list of legal army choices:
Codex: Black Templars
Codex: Blood Angels
Codex: Chaos Daemons
Codex: Chaos Space Marines
Codex: Grey Knights
Codex: Dark Angels
Codex: Dark Eldar
Codex: Eldar
Codex: Imperial Guard
Codex: Necrons
Codex: Orks
Codex: Space Marines
Codex: Space Wolves
Codex: Tau Empire
Codex: Tyranids
Codex: Sisters of Battle (White Dwarf)



MODELS AND POINTS:

1. Each player must bring an army consisting of 1250 points or fewer (1200 min), in accordance with these rules. Each team will consist of two players fighting together.

The Force Organization Chart will be split up into two parts as follows:

(Each player must take)
1 HQ
0-1 Elites
2-3 Troops
0-1 Fast Attack
0-1 Heavy Support

In addition, the two players on a team share three ‘floating’ selections, one each in Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support. Either player may use up to two of these floating slots, but may not use the same slot as their partner. For example, Player A takes a second Elites choice and a second Heavy Support choice. This means their partner, Player B, may take a second Fast Attack choice as the third floating slot.

An exception to this is the mandatory choices for some armies. For example: "You must take this HQ at this many points." Those choices are allowed outside of these restrictions. Ex. Space Wolves.

2. All models must follow “What You See Is What You Get” (WYSIWYG). All weapons, war gear, and so forth must be represented on the model.

3. Forge World Imperial Armour Apocalypse SECOND EDITION units and army lists MAY be used in this event.  Players MUST have the model or an identical WYSIWYG equivalent if they plan to include it in their list. [SUBJECT TO CHANGE: I NEED TO GET CONFIRMATION I HAVE THE CORRECT BOOK LISTED]

4. Teams are not integrated. You may not share tech (for example, using each others teleport homers, etc).

5. If a unit/wargear/ability says something to the effect of "choose a friendly unit/model" you may not select a teammates unit.

6. We will require that each player submits his army list to a Battleground Tournament Organizer on or before Monday, May 21st (roughly a week before the event). We ask that players email their lists to ChaseLaq@gmail.com as soon as they are finalized. We are going to do our best to check every list before the event begins.

7. If illegal units or other rules violations are found in a player’s army list, at a minimum, the models in violation will be removed from all subsequent play. In addition, tournament points may be deducted and/or award eligibility may be forfeited. If in doubt, please ask for clarification in advance from a Battleground Tournament Organizer.


The scenarios we will be using for the event will be announced shortly.





HOW THE TOURNAMENT WORKS:

• Competitors will participate in three (3) games over the course of the day. In each game, you will play a scenario and record the outcome of the battle on your results sheet. Each round you will play a different opponent.

• Each round will last 2.5 hours. Players will have 15 minutes after the pairings have been called to deploy their models before time for the round begins.

• In the first round, players will be matched up randomly. After the first round, players will be matched up according to current rankings in the tournament (Battle Points + other conditional point modifiers presented in each scenario) e.g., the player in first place will play the player in second place and so on.

• We will try our best not to pair teams that come to the event together in the first round.

• If a team receives a BYE they will be awarded the average of the winning teams points for the round.

• You will not play the same team twice.

• We will do our best to prevent a team from playing on the same table twice.

• The pairings for each round will be announced as soon as they are determined. Please be sure to arrive at your table ready to play right away. We ask that each player be conscious of the time and that you play at a regular and steady pace to complete the game. Anyone found slow playing or deliberately stalling for any reason will be penalized.

• Each game will be played on a 4' x 6' board.

• Players will receive Results Sheets at the beginning of each round. Each results sheet must be filled in properly to ensure that match-ups and point totals are correct. Once Results Sheets are completed they are to be turned in at the counter so the scores can be entered into the computer.



BATTLES:

The Fifth Edition Rulebook will be in use for all games. Where appropriate, Battleground will be using the INAT FAQ (http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/up/INATFAQv5.1.1.pdf) to clear up any confusion. The time limit for each game is 2.5 hours. At the end of this time limit, the round will be called; all players will need to finish their game immediately, and no additional time will be provided (dice down).

Players should not begin a round that they can not finish.


What You Need to Bring with You:
-Your (hopefully painted) miniatures
-At least THREE copies of your army list
-Rulebooks and any additional books you need
-Pen and paper
-Dice and templates
-Tape measure
-Something to transport your army from table to table



Store Credit Awards will be given out to:
Store credit is good for any product in the store and all subsequent events. It never expires and will be saved for you.

Best Generals
Second Best Generals
Third Best Generals
Fourth Best Generals (only awarded if the turnout is large)
Fifth Best Generals (only awarded if the turnout is large)
Best Appearance - Army (individual)
Smokin' Boots - You got crushed... and you deserve an award for your epic failure.
Players Choice - The Players Choice award will go to the team that the others feel best reflects important aspects of the hobby.  Every team will score their opponents on sportsmanship, theme, appearance, and overall awesomeness.  **This award will be significant.**


A team may only win one award. The Best Appearance award may go to any one player participating in the event, regardless of their finish / other awards.


• A note on the Appearance award - We will award the individual who we feel has the best looking army. We will use a scoring rubric that looks at painting, basing, display boards, and various other "extras" to determine the winner.  We will not be awarding an individual model this time around.


Please post any questions or comments here.

(http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/4312675/640/4312675.jpg) (http://picturepush.com/public/4312675)
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Frosthydra on October 27, 2011, 06:20:47 PM
Neat!  I haven't seen doubles games before really... should be fun!

I'd probably be interested, I'd need to build a list and find a partner however...

If anyone is thinking about it, I'd be bringing a Tyranid force.  It's still in the assembling process, so very flexible!
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on October 27, 2011, 06:54:00 PM
We've been absent a strong Abington contingent at our last few 40k events.  It would be great to see some of you guys come out for this one.

The prizes have been expanded, so check them out and let me know.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Torvald on October 27, 2011, 06:54:43 PM
I am in. Looking for a partner.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Grimwulfe on October 28, 2011, 09:06:27 AM
Chase Dark Star shall be there in force..  Please sign up

Troy/Keith
Bill/Jeff H
Hans/Mike
Josh/Jake

Thanks man.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on October 28, 2011, 03:36:37 PM
Will you be using the Command tokens as described in the missions? 
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on October 28, 2011, 03:47:35 PM
Will you be using the Command tokens as described in the missions? 

Yes.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Wes on October 28, 2011, 04:14:00 PM
I should be available on that day, anyone need a teammate?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Lykosan on October 28, 2011, 04:50:25 PM
Me and Seth
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on October 28, 2011, 05:02:00 PM
OK, how do the "command token points" and Commander's heads figure into the final scoring, if at all?  That wasn't clear to me. 
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on October 28, 2011, 05:36:52 PM
Me and Seth

Please email me.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: PhoenixFire on October 28, 2011, 05:39:56 PM
1250 painted by December, i can do that!
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on October 28, 2011, 05:40:05 PM
OK, how do the "command token points" and Commander's heads figure into the final scoring, if at all?  That wasn't clear to me.  

Scope out the result sheets.  It's literally a "fill in the bubble" situation.  1 point per bubble.

Kill both enemy commanders?  2 points.
Both of yours survived?  2 points.

Didn't use command tokens or both units with command tokens survived?  2 points.
Killed your enemies units bearing command tokens?  2 points.

etc.
etc.

It's identical to previous Doubles tournaments.  :)
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on October 28, 2011, 05:40:44 PM
1250 painted by December, i can do that!

Awesome!  Now find yourself a partner and let's do this!  WOOO!
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Seth on October 28, 2011, 06:53:27 PM
Chase Riley and i are going as a team.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on October 28, 2011, 07:14:47 PM
OK, how do the "command token points" and Commander's heads figure into the final scoring, if at all?  That wasn't clear to me.  

Scope out the result sheets.  It's literally a "fill in the bubble" situation.  1 point per bubble.

Kill both enemy commanders?  2 points.
Both of yours survived?  2 points.

Didn't use command tokens or both units with command tokens survived?  2 points.
Killed your enemies units bearing command tokens?  2 points.

etc.
etc.

It's identical to previous Doubles tournaments.  :)


Yeah, I get that, I definitely understand how figure out how many Commander's points, command points you've scored.  What I don't get is how those count.  Like, are they functionally the same as Battle points in the end for determining a winner?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on October 28, 2011, 07:43:08 PM
Yeah, they're worth a point apiece towards your total Battle Points.  They are essentially "bonus" points used to help stratify the standings.

Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Torvald on October 28, 2011, 11:54:27 PM
Still looking for a partner if anyone is looking

-Vance
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on October 29, 2011, 06:02:42 PM
Wes is looking for a partner and Vance is looking for a partner.

Anyone from Abington looking?


Personally, I'd like to see the dual Necron team of WEScron and NecRON team up again... Especially if Necrons end up being the real deal.


(Chances are there's a bunch of people that haven't yet seen / heard about this event)
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Grand Master Steve on October 29, 2011, 06:19:29 PM
I would like to come. Gotta clear it with work and stuff so im a mayber I cant say ill comitt just yet. I can crank out that many Cadian Drop troops by then for sure. I will be using the standard guard codex since the Elysian one is unavailable. Ill have an answer for you soon Chace.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on October 29, 2011, 06:20:42 PM
I would like to come. Gotta clear it with work and stuff so im a mayber I cant say ill comitt just yet. I can crank out that many Cadian Drop troops by then for sure. I will be using the standard guard codex since the Elysian one is unavailable. Ill have an answer for you soon Chace.

Awesome.  This would make me very, very happy.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: canadianone on October 29, 2011, 10:23:22 PM
Emory and Matt (Susalka) are doing this. Tau and Guard, this is going to be an interesting reversal from my normal tyranids.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Torvald on October 30, 2011, 12:39:04 AM
Looks like Wes and Vance no longer need partners as they will be running together
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on October 30, 2011, 12:45:20 AM
Awesome!  If one of you guys can shoot me an email, that would be great.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Loranus on October 30, 2011, 02:48:05 AM
>.> Oh boy Wes playing in doubles I feel bad for Vance. :P
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Grand Master Steve on October 30, 2011, 05:34:42 PM
Chase question on how "floating" choices work. Ordinarily we have 3 slots for non manditory units like Fast attack or Heavy.

So I get one Fast attack slot. My team mate gets one as well. So can my team mate give up his and I get 2 fast attack slots plus the "floating" one based on what you posted for rules?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Alley Livingston on October 30, 2011, 07:18:21 PM
Highly interested looking for a parter. I play spacewolves.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Thefallen on October 30, 2011, 08:28:39 PM
What is a command token? Im new to the turni thing.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on October 30, 2011, 10:17:33 PM
My team mate gets one as well. So can my team mate give up his and I get 2 fast attack slots plus the "floating" one based on what you posted for rules?

Nope.

You get 0-1
Your partner gets 0-1
And ONE of you gets an additional 1, if you so chose.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on October 30, 2011, 10:18:29 PM
What is a command token? Im new to the turni thing.

The scenarios packet I've linked to in the original post covers command tokens and their rules.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Loranus on October 31, 2011, 12:21:31 AM
Kinda Interested in doubles Need to find me a Partner for my Salamanders.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Grand Master Steve on October 31, 2011, 06:03:41 PM
My team mate gets one as well. So can my team mate give up his and I get 2 fast attack slots plus the "floating" one based on what you posted for rules?

Nope.

You get 0-1
Your partner gets 0-1
And ONE of you gets an additional 1, if you so chose.

Ok so Max only one of us can have is 2 after both players agree on who gets the floater correct?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on October 31, 2011, 06:15:52 PM
Yes.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Grand Master Steve on October 31, 2011, 09:59:23 PM
Thanks for the clearification
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Grand Master Steve on November 06, 2011, 12:50:29 AM
Chase ill e-mail you as well, put me down with teaming up with Nick Hough
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Wes on November 07, 2011, 04:47:15 PM
Finally, I love adepticon missions.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on November 09, 2011, 08:05:24 PM
We've only got a few spaces left.  If you and your partner are planning to play and can definitely make it, please email me ASAP.

ChaseLaq@gmail.com
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on November 09, 2011, 08:10:45 PM
Also, I have recently been notified that I will be able to award the winners of this event free weekend passes to TempleCon on February 3rd, 4th, and 5th.

Not a bad little addition to the prize pool.  ;)
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Wes on November 09, 2011, 08:28:05 PM
Also, I have recently been notified that I will be able to award the winners of this event free weekend passes to TempleCon on February 3rd, 4th, and 5th.

Not a bad little addition to the prize pool.  ;)

Not a bad addition at all.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: The_Chef on November 11, 2011, 12:02:28 AM
Apparently I have saturdays off again. Now to track down a potential partner. i usually run wolves as my 1250
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on November 11, 2011, 03:10:36 AM
The last few spots are going fast.  Email me ASAP if you and your partner can commit to playing.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on November 15, 2011, 02:19:32 AM
I must say... The list of teams for this tournament is rather impressive.



On a completely unrelated note, I am still taking teams.  If you would like to be added to the short list of alternates (meaning, you're really likely to get in) email me ASAP.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: GossWeapon on November 16, 2011, 12:00:32 PM
Also, I have recently been notified that I will be able to award the winners of this event free weekend passes to TempleCon on February 3rd, 4th, and 5th.

Not a bad little addition to the prize pool.  ;)

 :)

We good on my pre-reg dog?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: GossWeapon on November 16, 2011, 12:03:48 PM
Chase Dark Star shall be there in force..  Please sign up

Troy/Keith
Bill/Jeff H
Hans/Mike
Josh/Jake

Thanks man.

No Rickles? lol
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Frosthydra on November 16, 2011, 01:44:15 PM
I might be interested in joining a team... if anyone is interested in a Tyranid partner who is more focused on playing for fun, I've got a decent (or at least entertaining) 1250 point list idea.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Ian Mulligan on November 16, 2011, 02:50:08 PM
Chase Dark Star shall be there in force..  Please sign up

Troy/Keith
Bill/Jeff H
Hans/Mike
Josh/Jake

Thanks man.

No Rickles? lol

He has to do laundry.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on November 16, 2011, 07:12:20 PM
Also, I have recently been notified that I will be able to award the winners of this event free weekend passes to TempleCon on February 3rd, 4th, and 5th.

Not a bad little addition to the prize pool.  ;)

 :)

We good on my pre-reg dog?

Yes.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on November 16, 2011, 07:14:12 PM
Chase Dark Star shall be there in force..  Please sign up

Troy/Keith
Bill/Jeff H
Hans/Mike
Josh/Jake

Thanks man.

No Rickles? lol

I was surprised by this too.  Didn't Rick win a Doubles thing somewhere else recently?  Maybe Ian is right.  /shrug
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Bill on November 17, 2011, 08:03:23 AM
I believe he has a "Christmas" party. I guess that is what the kids are calling them these days.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: keithb on November 17, 2011, 02:11:12 PM
Rick you better get a picture of you on "Santa's" lap.  On second thought... don't.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Grimwulfe on November 17, 2011, 02:12:00 PM
Bill is correct Rick has work obligations to attend to that day.  IE hes getting drunk with his co-workers
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Grand Master Steve on November 19, 2011, 10:22:40 PM
I heard a rumor that other than the HQ and troop choices Army comp is being tossed out the window and this tourney is going to play more like 'Ard Boyz. Is this a true rumor?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Ian Mulligan on November 20, 2011, 12:35:54 AM
You will not be scored on comp, but that doesn't mean everyone will be an asshole. Every time I've played with Rich we made top 3 and I play with my loltastic Thousand Sons. It can be competitive, but its definitely not outrageous or uncomfortable.

EDIT: More importantly, after 30+ doubles games hosted by BG, I've had only ONE negative experience. That is insanely impressive and says a lot about the community you'll be playing with.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Grand Master Steve on November 20, 2011, 12:45:45 AM
Ah ok then I should only worry about Dave Goss's list then
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on November 20, 2011, 01:25:03 AM
Ian is right, your lists will not have anything to do with your score in the event.

This time around we are giving a Player's Choice award in addition to other, more conventional awards.  We will ask players to examine several aspects of each team they face.  One of those aspects is the teams "theme".  If the team has a poor theme or the lists are way cheesy and over the top, you may not get an exceptional score in that category.  Again, this will have zero impact on your score in the tournament but will have (At least in part) an impact on your Player's Choice score.

Here's an example of where one of the five categories is currently.  This is very much a work in progress:


Team / Army Composition
                        
5 - Right out of the fluff. Super cool. Why didn't we think of that??
4 - Cool backstory, bro.
3 - Solid choices, fair lists, team makes sense in the Warhammer universe
2 - Slice of cheese
1 - Team with extra cheese


I would not advise building lists based on this snap-shot, work in progress, 20% of the Player's Choice score sheet.


The event is a tournament.  There are a lot of teams registered with several waiting for a spot to open up.  It would be a mistake to think you won't face powerful teams / lists if you remain at the top tables all day.

Like Ian said, the 40k community in our area is more or less full of good people who want enjoyable experiences playing the game they love.  Come down with a positive attitude looking to have a great time and you probably will.  You know that, Steve. ;)

Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Benjamin on November 20, 2011, 03:49:34 AM
I would not advise building lists based on this snap-shot, work in progress, 20% of the Player's Choice score sheet.
Go cheese or go home!

Composition is separate from competition. BG's biggest prize is for the tournament winner. If you happen to have an awesome army, an awesome personality and an awesome knowledge of the game, there's a prize for that too.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Torvald on November 20, 2011, 08:49:01 PM
Seems my partner has to drop

Apparently I have 40K partner plague as this is very much a tradition for me.

Anyone in need of a partner?

-Vance
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on November 21, 2011, 05:33:34 PM
Hey, question #1

My partner is playing Black Templar.  Does he get to take the emperor's champion in addition to a regular HQ?  Does he have to take the EC at all?  Does he have to take both EC and normal HQ (usual rules, I believe).  Or does he have to take the EC and nothing else?  I've seen many different doubles tournaments rule in different ways on this, and I forget what the Battlegrounds standard is.


#2.  Just to double check, Commander's heads and Command points are just worth 1 battle point each in the end, right?  Since each round has 25-30 battle pts in it, does it seem like those single points kinda get lost among the noise?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Bill on November 21, 2011, 05:38:51 PM
EC is mandatory and does not take up a slot unless you want him to. Him taking up a slot is optional but you must take him.

In te past they have been one BP I imagine they are the same here.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on November 21, 2011, 06:07:43 PM
Hey, question #1

My partner is playing Black Templar.  Does he get to take the emperor's champion in addition to a regular HQ?  Does he have to take the EC at all?  Does he have to take both EC and normal HQ (usual rules, I believe).  Or does he have to take the EC and nothing else?  I've seen many different doubles tournaments rule in different ways on this, and I forget what the Battlegrounds standard is.


#2.  Just to double check, Commander's heads and Command points are just worth 1 battle point each in the end, right?  Since each round has 25-30 battle pts in it, does it seem like those single points kinda get lost among the noise?

1) Bill is correct.  When it comes to models that are required or have requirements, everything is by the book.

2) Each Commander Head and Command Point is worth 1 point for your team if they remain "intact" and one point each for your opponent if they "killed" "destroyed" or "used".  This may seem insignificant but it does add up over three rounds.  Keep in mind that up to 8 points can be earned each round from Commander Heads and Command Points.

You may receive a max of:
2 points for your surviving Commanders
2 points for enemy Commanders you destroyed
2 points for your Command Tokens that survived and you did not use / expend
2 points for enemy Command Tokens you destroyed

I suggest taking a look at the score sheets for each scenario for additional clarification, if you have not already.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on November 22, 2011, 05:07:32 PM
It seemed to me that for most scenarios, using the command point didn't give either side points.

If don't deploy or don't use a command point, you get a point.

If you use it, it's just neutral, no one gets points.

If the enemy kills the unit owning it, they get the points.

Yes?  So command points can be 1,0, or -1, essentially.

I'll agree a total of 8 pts will have a much larger effect. 
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Frosthydra on November 22, 2011, 05:13:11 PM
To the best of my understanding, command points were one per player, not side.  Same as commanders, so the situations would be as follows:

Command Points:
Kill your enemies' two, keep your two: +4, 1 point for each
Lose your two, enemies keep their two: 0

Commanders:
Kill your enemies' two, keep your two: +4, 1 point for each
Lose your two, enemies keep their two: 0

So across both, you can earn 8 points.

I believe the rules state that you must designate a unit to carry your command point, if it doesn't enter the field, it is count as lost, same as commanders.

Also, they don't get "used" I believe, more that if the unit carrying it is in certain situations, you can complete side objectives.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on November 22, 2011, 06:11:50 PM
Steve is right.

This is all clarified in the scenario packet.  There is a section at the beginning of the packet that details how Commander's Heads and Command Tokens work.  Also, at the bottom of each score sheet I feel as though it's made pretty clear on how they're scored.

Here is the link to the scenario packet. (http://www.adepticon.org/wpfiles/2011/201140Kteam.pdf)
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on November 22, 2011, 06:28:38 PM
Oh, I've read the packet, this is still just confusing.  

I think I was getting thrown off by scenario one, where the command token is essentially "used" from the commander to grant a power to a unit within 12".  If they're not within 12", the token counts as destroyed.  

Anyway, I think I got it now, thanks for explaining.  
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Frosthydra on November 22, 2011, 06:30:48 PM
Yeah, from that scenario:

"Once the Command Token is invoked, the Command Token remains in play with your Commander for the remainder of the game, but may not be used again. If your Commander is destroyed or broken at the end of the game, then your Command Token is considered lost for the purposes of scoring."

Using and having your target out of range destroys it, but using it successfully does not have you lose it.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on November 22, 2011, 07:31:18 PM
Got it, thanks. 

BTW, I believe the score sheet for mission 3 has a rather significant typo:  it marks you getting 6 points for holding your own objectives and 2 for holding the enemy's, while the mission itself describes the opposite (6 for holding the enemy's, 2 for your own). 

I believe 6 for the enemy's is probably the intention, no?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on November 25, 2011, 07:29:16 PM
You are correct, Matt.  If I chose scenario 3 I will DEFINITELY make sure the score sheet refelcts this change.

Good catch.  Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: canadianone on November 28, 2011, 10:27:04 PM
Well, my partner cant make it so we are out of the running =(
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on November 28, 2011, 11:50:18 PM
Emory, he said that Willam was going to fill in if he couldn't get a ride down here.  Is this still the case?

If not, let me know ASAP.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: canadianone on November 29, 2011, 06:11:26 AM
Nope, turns out willem has work, so it looks like you are going to need to call up the waiting list. Sorry about that.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Frosthydra on November 29, 2011, 10:15:51 AM
I'd offer to team up with you, but that's not really fair to anyone on the waiting list.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Thefallen on November 29, 2011, 10:26:19 AM
Two questions. 1st when do you need the list submitted?
2nd what's the deal with ” brothers in arms” and does it affect this turni at all?
Side note question. I know this makes 3 questions so I lied. :)
Have you got in my order of cypher and asmodei yet?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on November 30, 2011, 09:05:16 PM
Brothers in Arms will not be used for this event.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Benjamin on November 30, 2011, 09:12:12 PM
Brothers in Arms will not be used for this event.
Not even the Dire Straits version as a theme song?

I'm so helpful.

ETA: Looks like family obligations are afoot, thus dashing any hope of mine to fill in for absent partners. I'll still be able to swing by in the afternoon, though.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on December 01, 2011, 01:15:38 PM
Can we have a ruling on this scarab thing ahead of time?

I don't care about the order of events on entropic strike so much, but if I get randomly first turn charged I'll be pissed.

Here's a BOLS post that nicely summs up the problem(s):

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/11/paging-matthew-ward-scarab-edition.html
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: KestrelM1 on December 01, 2011, 02:21:45 PM
Can we have a ruling on this scarab thing ahead of time?

I don't care about the order of events on entropic strike so much, but if I get randomly first turn charged I'll be pissed.

Here's a BOLS post that nicely summs up the problem(s):

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/11/paging-matthew-ward-scarab-edition.html

The current RAW indicate the following:

1. The Armor Drain from Entropic Strike happens before rolling to pen. It clearly states that you roll for Entropic Strike drainage after each hit, and that the drain happens immediately, i.e. before the roll to pen.

2. Spyder + Scarab conga lines are legit. The Scarab hive rule only states that you pick a scarab swarm within 6", roll your d6, and on a 2+ you add a base to the unit, with no restrictions on where (terrible rules writing IMO, but that's GW for you). That means the only rule that applies is that the new base must be within coherency of the existing unit.

3. Scarab hive says add a base to the unit, this may take it past its starting size. No mention of maximum. There is no cap on how many scarab bases you can add to a unit. (I really don't understand why this was even brought up).

If you run into someone who's fixing to 1st-turn-scarab-bomb you, it's probably wise to reserve anything you don't want getting charged. The first two questions above could use an FAQ to clear up confusion, but as written they fully allow for the shenanigans described.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Benjamin on December 01, 2011, 02:55:15 PM
*sigh* Another example of why I can't read BOLS.

I will in the strongest terms advocate for Mike Brandt's assessment.

http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2011/11/note-on-scarab-freak-outs.html

In a nutshell...

Entropic Strike... This requires a player to read the rules. A terrifying thought, I know. Hits happen before pens. Armor gets eaten before pens. That's an the easy one.

Scarab Conga... Major tournaments will not allow the Scarab Conga line, unless GW specifically says it can happen. What tournaments will allow is for new Scarabs bases to be placed within coherency of the original unit. Think of all the Scarabs being generated simultaneously, instead of one after the other.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on December 01, 2011, 03:01:46 PM
Right.

That's fine with the armor pens, as I stated, don't care so much about that.

But with the conga-line thing.  I don't care if it's RAW.  RAW is stupid in this case.  It's clearly not what is intended, first turn charges are supposed to be largely impossible to accomplish.

So can we just rule that no, you can't do it?  All new scarabs have to be within coherency of scarabs that were there at the beginning of the turn or something similar?  (it actually works like this already, if you simply declare that all the scarab creation happens "simultaneously" much like one unit shooting, then you can't chain one of the other.)
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Grimwulfe on December 01, 2011, 03:10:32 PM
I dont play Necrons but RAW is RAW until it is FAQ'ed.  Regardless of peoples opinions about.  And trust me I dot like or agree with it either but there is noting that says they cant.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on December 01, 2011, 03:14:58 PM
I disagree.  Why can't we house rule it?  This allows a first turn charge with a huge, fairly distructive and definitely tar-pit like unit.  It basically makes "being IG or Tau" completely unviable, and it's pretty sucky for a host of other army's besides.

I don't care what the RAW says.  We should just say "No".
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on December 01, 2011, 03:18:00 PM
and, point of order, one interpretation of RAW is actually that no, it is not legal, as per the link Ben sent over.

Quote
"Just a quick PSA that the probability is nearly 100% that any major FAQ and tournament out there is going to confirm all scarab swarms spawned in a given turn are spawned at the same time, and thus cannot be placed more than 2" from any scarab swarm base that was there at the beginning of the turn."
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Benjamin on December 01, 2011, 03:23:13 PM
I dont play Necrons but RAW is RAW until it is FAQ'ed.  Regardless of peoples opinions about.
Unless those people are TOs, amirite?

I disagree.  Why can't we house rule it?
Because house rules ultimately destroy communities. RAW is the only common language between players, new and old. That said...

BG generally takes its cues from major tournaments in terms of rulings and FAQs. (BG tournaments generally use the INAT FAQs.) A little bit of leeway is required by all players with any new codex. There is always confusion with a new book, complicated by beardy cheeseheads. If BG rules one way on a new rule with a gut instinct, but the rule changes between tournaments, the new rules will eventually be honored.

I think I'll ask Sam to make a rules announcement prior to the tournament start, to clarify BG's position.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: KestrelM1 on December 01, 2011, 03:24:21 PM
I disagree.  Why can't we house rule it?  This allows a first turn charge with a huge, fairly distructive and definitely tar-pit like unit.  It basically makes "being IG or Tau" completely unviable, and it's pretty sucky for a host of other army's besides.

I don't care what the RAW says.  We should just say "No".

I'm fine with either interpretation, but house-ruling something just because it seems overly powerful dilutes the game into something that isn't Warhammer 40k.

If you're truly offended by the fact that the RAW (potentially) makes this possible, I'd suggest addressing your complaints to those at fault - Games Workshop, rather than the fine folks at Battlegrounds.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Grimwulfe on December 01, 2011, 03:39:16 PM
Ben you have a very valid point.  I agree with you 100%.

Kestrel you made my point much better then I did :)
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on December 01, 2011, 03:57:40 PM
For better or for worse, things here seem pretty clear to me.

1) The AV is reduced before you roll to pen.

2) Conga lines seem perfectly legal.


I am not under the impression that there's any other way you *could* look at it.  Then again, I still don't think there's any alternative way to look at the lance thing from a while ago, but that's been resolved.

Personally, I think things like this are GOOD for ANY game. It's a gimmick and requires a large portion of your army to be dedicated to the "strategy".  If left unchanged I'm sure it will force people to adapt to deal with it.

I also think changing the way things work, when written so clearly, is bad when we're talking about a tournament environment.

I would like to see this not changed.  I do believe it will be FAQd such that you must place the extra bases in coherency with the original models.  Until that happens, I think it would be a shame to literally house rule something that, in my opinion, couldn't be more clear / within the rules.


Sam will decide how we should play it.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: jhobin on December 01, 2011, 04:01:39 PM
Unfortunately I believe the conga is legit right now, a little cheesy but legit.

I don't think it should be banned because it's a first round strike. Can't any beast unit technically first round charge if they deploy in 12' roll a fleet roll of 6' and there opponents deploy 12' in? If so wouldn't they have to be banned as well?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: keithb on December 01, 2011, 04:08:25 PM
NOVA and INAT will be banning the conga line if GW doesn't.

Keep in mind, a scarab unit with full Spyder support can assault a unit that was just over 50" away from it at the start of the turn.   FIFTY.  That is longer range than many long range guns.  It is clearly an oversight by the book authors.   

NO Jeff, Beasts have an 18" threat.  You get 50".  That isn't just a little different.   You can assault more than the WIDTH OF THE TABLE.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on December 01, 2011, 04:14:07 PM
For better or for worse, things here seem pretty clear to me.

1) The AV is reduced before you roll to pen.

2) Conga lines seem perfectly legal.


I am not under the impression that there's any other way you *could* look at it.  Then again, I still don't think there's any alternative way to look at the lance thing from a while ago, but that's been resolved.

Personally, I think things like this are GOOD for ANY game. It's a gimmick and requires a large portion of your army to be dedicated to the "strategy".  If left unchanged I'm sure it will force people to adapt to deal with it.

I also think changing the way things work, when written so clearly, is bad when we're talking about a tournament environment.

I would like to see this not changed.  I do believe it will be FAQd such that you must place the extra bases in coherency with the original models.  Until that happens, I think it would be a shame to literally house rule something that, in my opinion, couldn't be more clear / within the rules.


Sam will decide how we should play it.

Well, the main counter-view is that all the bases are simultaneous, thus you can't chain them.  That's common for a great many things.  
I don't think it should be banned because it's a first round strike. Can't any beast unit technically first round charge if they deploy in 12' roll a fleet roll of 6' and there opponents deploy 12' in? If so wouldn't they have to be banned as well?

Not really.  There's very few beasts that can start within 24".  In filtraters can only appear within 18", unless the enemy is stupid and deploys next to LOS blocking terrain, and scouters can never get within 12".  Not coincidentally, genestealers have infiltrate, but no scout, so it's impossible for them to first turn charge.

I can't think of any beasts that scout or infiltrate.  That's on purpose, to avoid first turn charges.

Now, it is possible to fist turn charge with some units, such SM scouts that somehow get fleet (some Special character gives it to them).  But scouts are wimps.  Anyway, it's really, really, really rare that this happens. 

Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on December 01, 2011, 04:25:03 PM
I have a feeling Sam will rule that it won't work as written.


I just really, really, really dislike changing a very powerful addition to a brand new codex 2 days before an event based on strong opinions.


Did the author foresee this "conga line"?  No.

Is it strong?  Yes.

Is it within the rules?  Yes.

Is it game breaking?  Who knows...

Does it make the game unfun?  Maybe.  At first it might, but so does any other gimmick strat that you didn't see coming.

Do I foresee this being an issue at the Doubles regardless of how it's ruled?  No.

Would I rather see people adapt to the fact that this might happen?  Yes.

Do I think things like this keep the game fresh?  Yes.

Do I think it will be FAQd?  Yes.

Do I think Sam will rule against it working as written?  Yes.

;)
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: keithb on December 01, 2011, 04:27:38 PM
Most units can reach 24" from where they started their turn in an assault, but that is only with a lucky fleet roll.

Scarabs go 50" with full spyder support.  This isn't if you are lucky, this is UNLESS there is other shit in the way.

More than twice what any other unit in the game can do.

Seems legit.

There isn't any reason to hesitate banning stupid stuff.  Necrons are fine, and will be fine without it.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Bill on December 01, 2011, 04:49:26 PM
I just want to say. I am Ben's biggest fan and I am going to give him a giant hug on Saturday.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Sam on December 01, 2011, 05:41:51 PM
Ben just let me know about this discussion. Since everybody's waiting on my answer, I'll chime in.

As written, "a Conoptek Spyder that is not locked in close combat can expend energy to create a Canoptek Scarab swarm". Note that the rules says Spyder, and not Spyder unit. As a result, I can't declare that scarab creations happen simultaneously without changing the rules.

Until we get an official FAQ, the conga line is legal.

I heartily encourage people to bring iPods loaded with conga music to play each and every time someone uses this tactic.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: keithb on December 01, 2011, 05:54:05 PM
Sounds great sam.  ::)

Also, you weren't just being asked how you read the rule but also if it should be legal.

You've played 40k, does a 50" assault seem like it was designed to happen, or just stupid oversight?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Torvald on December 01, 2011, 06:01:23 PM
Yes, please b ring your conga line into assault with my Dark Eldar. Please? Pretty Please?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Frosthydra on December 01, 2011, 06:11:36 PM
Or to the Tyranids... scarabs are crunchy.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: keithb on December 01, 2011, 06:22:37 PM
Yeah... raiders and venoms who haven't moved yet hold up really well to scarabs.... ::)


This isn't about which armies aren't hurt as bad as others either.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Frosthydra on December 01, 2011, 06:24:43 PM
Oh I know, stretching 50" across the table is pretty absurd for anyone.

And obviously you can build with that in mind, but yeah, still kind of crazy.

If it happens, cool, I'll try to deal with it.  If not, at least we've all discussed it in advance.

Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on December 01, 2011, 06:56:18 PM
For the record, I'm not that worried about this personally, but this still makes me sad.  It just shouldn't be legal, obviously was not meant to be legal, breaks some core concepts of the games' design, etc.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Seth on December 01, 2011, 07:02:47 PM
In apocalypse did entropic strike just nullify eldar holofields. They are tanks with a save that only triggers once hit. So a regular model loses a point of armour if unsaved and a tank loses armour if hit what happens to tanks with saves once hit. by rules they get no saves but that save would make it so that the hit didn't really happen. it just doesn't seem right.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on December 01, 2011, 07:32:40 PM
Apocalypse isn't even meant to be balanced. 
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Ian Mulligan on December 01, 2011, 07:33:25 PM
Sounds great sam.  ::)

Also, you weren't just being asked how you read the rule but also if it should be legal.

You've played 40k, does a 50" assault seem like it was designed to happen, or just stupid oversight?

Sam is the TO and I'm sure hes read the thread. He's a really smart dude and wouldn't randomly come to his conclusion. I'm sure that's how he landed the TO spot in the first place. Rather than see this thread degenerate into trying to change his mind, it would be better to accept what the organizer has decided and move on. If it happens, it happens.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Seth on December 01, 2011, 07:46:03 PM
why is it not meant to be balanced? i don't think it was designed to be unbalanced. the core of it is based on the regular 40k rules so if that were true, then it would be safe to assume 40k wasn't meant to be balanced.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Seth on December 01, 2011, 08:56:21 PM
Well what about dark eldar flickerfield. how does it work against that. seems to me that the tank should still get the inv. save.(all this should be moved to the necrons thread also)
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on December 02, 2011, 01:00:26 AM
If it offers any sort of "good feeling" I don't foresee this being an issue on Saturday.

The rule / situation will be addressed more appropriately going forward, however (as it is likely it will be covered in the next INAT update).
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Loranus on December 02, 2011, 01:38:51 AM
Entropic Strike just removes the Armour save from an Unsaved wound on A model so if you have a Save that wouldn't be an Armour Save (Cover, Invulnerable) Entropic Strike would not get rid of it and its only on that model if you have a squad of Multi-wound Models they all do not lose their armor saves if one suffers and Unsaved wound.

How Entropic Strike is Resolved against Infantry:
1. Roll To Hit
2. Roll To Wound
3. Armour Save if Applicable
4. Wound Inflicted on model that model Loses Armour save for rest of game

Against Vehicles:
1. Roll to Hit
2. Roll D6 for Each hit caused by Entropic Strike on a 4+ the armour on every side is reduced by 1 before penetrating rolls
3. Roll Penetration if Vehicle Still Standing

The reason for Entropic Strike is to roll those 4+ to wreck vehicles

As for the Scarab conga line I dont buy it as a viable strategy and costs way too many points I think to be viable in this tournament. 300 points by the way it sounds to get 6 Spyders and thats taking up 2 Heavy Support slots to do it which is a lot of points for stuff that can't do much unless you upgrade them more which then makes it 450 points to make 2 viable squads that pump out a conga line that loses the viability of having 3 squads. You play Smart if someone brings it Go second and deploy away from the scarabs with the weapons that can instant kill the scarab squad. (thunderfire cannon go :O)

The Conga Line is Defeated anyways by Scenario 3 since Dawn of War is so much Fun.

Dawn of War you move your models onto the board during the first turn during movement phase so you can not scarab hive that turn.

I think it won't be so much of an issue if people get it to work I think it will be great but I don't think it will win the Tourney for teams.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on December 02, 2011, 01:47:20 AM
I think the issue is being able to multi-assault several (armored) things first turn, before they can do anything about it, rendering many things "useless", with a unit that is largely comprised of "free" models.

There is no doubt it's extremely powerful and that the "conga line" was not intended.  Definitely an oversite by the author, but it looks like we're playing it RAW this weekend.  Sam is our rules guy, and I think we can unanimously agree that he's very good at it.


Again, I do not foresee this being an issue on Saturday.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Benjamin on December 02, 2011, 02:16:21 AM
Sam and I chatted about this tonight for awhile, and I feel better after talking with him. He understands the concerns on all sides, and I support him fully on the issue. There's no right answer and no way to make everyone happy. We think we know what the rules were supposed to mean, but RAW is ultimately the better choice.

I do think there's some over-reaction. Scarabs wrecking a bunch of vehicles first turn, the outcome is the same as so many other armies, like IG, Space Wolves, Blood Angels... You're losing alot of your vehicles to any good army. Instead of in the Shooting Phase, it's now the Assault Phase. Same shit, different shovel.

As a player, just be ready for it. Just remember too, they're only T3 and they don't have Eternal Warrior. They'll present a very different challenge, but we're all smart enough to figure it out. Just have to do it faster!
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: keithb on December 02, 2011, 12:07:31 PM
Sounds great sam.  ::)

Also, you weren't just being asked how you read the rule but also if it should be legal.

You've played 40k, does a 50" assault seem like it was designed to happen, or just stupid oversight?

Sam is the TO and I'm sure hes read the thread. He's a really smart dude and wouldn't randomly come to his conclusion. I'm sure that's how he landed the TO spot in the first place. Rather than see this thread degenerate into trying to change his mind, it would be better to accept what the organizer has decided and move on. If it happens, it happens.

My response was simply because there was more than one question in play here, and sam only addressed one of them.  A TO isn't hamstrung by exact wording in one army codex unless they want to be.  I totally support it being Sam's decision, I just wanted to be sure that he considered more than just the text on the page.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: keithb on December 02, 2011, 12:09:39 PM
Sam and I chatted about this tonight for awhile, and I feel better after talking with him. He understands the concerns on all sides, and I support him fully on the issue. There's no right answer and no way to make everyone happy. We think we know what the rules were supposed to mean, but RAW is ultimately the better choice.

I do think there's some over-reaction. Scarabs wrecking a bunch of vehicles first turn, the outcome is the same as so many other armies, like IG, Space Wolves, Blood Angels... You're losing alot of your vehicles to any good army. Instead of in the Shooting Phase, it's now the Assault Phase. Same shit, different shovel.

As a player, just be ready for it. Just remember too, they're only T3 and they don't have Eternal Warrior. They'll present a very different challenge, but we're all smart enough to figure it out. Just have to do it faster!

It isn't even about the potential for the first turn carnage.  Though, it is easier to set up to get cover saves from shooting than hide from scarabs on BG tables.

The bigger concern is just the 50" threat range, which is more than twice ANY OTHER UNIT in the game.   It's absurd and clearly an oversight.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Alley Livingston on December 02, 2011, 01:18:25 PM
I know it's kind of late to ask but my ride home bailed and I was wondering if I could get a ride home from someone, I can give gas money plus some. I live in braintree.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on December 02, 2011, 02:04:28 PM
Cookie and Capone are supposed to be playing, Alley.  I would ask them.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Benjamin on December 02, 2011, 02:10:52 PM
The bigger concern is just the 50" threat range, which is more than twice ANY OTHER UNIT in the game.   It's absurd and clearly an oversight.
After the Death Ray "models in the unit under the line" conversation on this forum, only one thing is clear to me. We can't know with any certainty what GW intended at any given moment. This is especially true with 6th Edition on the horizon, as they're writing with tilt toward a game balance that we don't even know exists.

If and when GW and/or INAT defines/clarifies the rules, BG will keep pace.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Alley Livingston on December 02, 2011, 02:22:13 PM
Cookie and Capone are supposed to be playing, Alley.  I would ask them.
they are but arw driving together in Capone's truck so no room
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Ian Mulligan on December 02, 2011, 03:10:28 PM
The bigger concern is just the 50" threat range, which is more than twice ANY OTHER UNIT in the game.   It's absurd and clearly an oversight.
After the Death Ray "models in the unit under the line" conversation on this forum, only one thing is clear to me. We can't know with any certainty what GW intended at any given moment. This is especially true with 6th Edition on the horizon, as they're writing with tilt toward a game balance that we don't even know exists.

If and when GW and/or INAT defines/clarifies the rules, BG will keep pace.

This. This. A thousand times this.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: keithb on December 02, 2011, 03:34:05 PM
My biggest problem is that we can't with any certainty assume GW knows what it intended at any given moment.   They are simply a "Model company" after all.

Makes me wonder why I bothered painting my Tyranids first when I have a whole Circle of Orboros Army that has been waiting patiently for years at this point. 
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Seth on December 02, 2011, 04:19:57 PM
because tyranids don't have tanks so they are safe. you are fine don't worry about the scarabs then.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Ian Mulligan on December 02, 2011, 04:28:07 PM
because tyranids don't have tanks so they are safe. you are fine don't worry about the scarabs then.

I legit lol'd in class.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on December 02, 2011, 04:46:40 PM
The bigger concern is just the 50" threat range, which is more than twice ANY OTHER UNIT in the game.   It's absurd and clearly an oversight.
After the Death Ray "models in the unit under the line" conversation on this forum, only one thing is clear to me. We can't know with any certainty what GW intended at any given moment. This is especially true with 6th Edition on the horizon, as they're writing with tilt toward a game balance that we don't even know exists.

If and when GW and/or INAT defines/clarifies the rules, BG will keep pace.


Ummmm, ok, what was the ruling on the Deathray thing?  Cuz I read Dakka too, it's my opinion that a certain group of people are deliberately misreading things to get a more favorable result.

After this conga line fiasco, I sorta fear the answer, now.

Daemon Princes are Daemons, guys!
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Loranus on December 02, 2011, 04:57:46 PM
In short how Sam ruled it number of models under line number of hits unit takes. So line touches 2 models in a unit that unit takes 2 hits.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Benjamin on December 02, 2011, 05:09:24 PM
Sam's ruling with explanation on the Death Ray thing:

http://www.battlegroundgames.com/forum/index.php?topic=2135.msg32473#msg32473
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on December 02, 2011, 05:59:26 PM
Sam's ruling with explanation on the Death Ray thing:

http://www.battlegroundgames.com/forum/index.php?topic=2135.msg32473#msg32473

.............whew!


Also, it was a pretty good english explanation
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on December 02, 2011, 08:42:57 PM
We are down 13 teams from a week ago.  This makes me really sad. :(

I expect 24 to be at the event tomorrow.  I did my best to fill all the spots, but various things prevented that.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Seth on December 02, 2011, 09:32:20 PM
so how many teams are there going to be?
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Chase on December 02, 2011, 10:15:07 PM
I expect 24 to be at the event tomorrow.

;)
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Seth on December 02, 2011, 10:29:20 PM
sorry i am a idiot. i thought it was expected and that 14 were down from that.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Rurouni Benshin on December 02, 2011, 11:10:24 PM
And here I am 4+ hours away, jonesing just to even play a game...

Have fun tomorrow, guys! :D
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Sam on December 02, 2011, 11:16:28 PM
@keith: When functioning as rules guy, I try to avoid the word "should". How a rule should work is a matter of opinion, especially since, as you pointed out, we have a better chance of spitting on the Moon than we do of knowing exactly what GW intends. If it helps, here's how my rules guy-ing process generally goes:

1. Learn of rules dispute.
2. Read rule. Is meaning ambiguous?
3. If rule text is not ambiguous (determining this is often the lengthiest step), apply rule as written.
4. If rule text is ambiguous, apply ruling most in keeping with reasonable expectations.

Step 4 is the only time I let "should" come into play. Otherwise, I'm deliberately changing the wording to fit my own notion of 40k, which is probably very different from what a lot of other people have. I'm a casual player at heart; I play 40k from a zone where everything's a lot friendlier more whimsical than what sometimes actually goes on at a tournament. So when I make a ruling in a tournament setting, I pretty much put my own feelings on how the game should be played aside, in favor of the most objective interpretation of the rules that I can manage.

So that's where I'm coming from. Looking forward to seeing everybody tomorrow! Let's play some Warball!
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Bill on December 02, 2011, 11:21:14 PM
Now I want to play whatever game is called warball. It sounds like a winner to me.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Alley Livingston on December 02, 2011, 11:24:12 PM
I have no way of getting home after the tournament so I unfortunately have to drop. Sorry Chase.
Title: Re: [Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3
Post by: Benjamin on December 04, 2011, 01:39:50 AM
Today was a really good experience, to walk around and soak up the tournament. I got to talk with lots of players. Almost makes me just want to show up instead of play....

Nah! Time to get cracking on my Spehss Mahreens!