Battleground Games Forum
Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: PhoenixFire on June 30, 2012, 12:44:00 PM
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Now that the new book is out what are everyones thoughts on fortifications?
The force org chart allows you to take one (or 2 in a 2k+ game)
I dont know how everyone elses codex faired, but if i dont take an agis defence line i have NOTHING in my codex with the skyfire rule and therefore are pretty defenseless against all the shiny new flyers everyone has.
The only things im seeing with skyfire are...
Hydra autocannon for IG.
A new type of missle from a missle launcher called "flakk" (not sure who will be able to buy that)
And the aforementioned Aegis defence line
Thoughts?
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I personally don't think fortifications (or double force org for that matter) should be used. Fliers are EXTREMELY limited on how they are able to move and therefore target things. This can be heavily utilized to ensure many things don't get shot by fliers. GK do have a unit to deal with Fliers: Dreadknights which are one of the best flying MCs in the game. With the test games I have done so far (bearing in mind I have only done three) flying MCs are much harder to deal with than fliers, especially those with a 2+ save.
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I personally don't think fortifications (or double force org for that matter) should be used. Fliers are EXTREMELY limited on how they are able to move and therefore target things. This can be heavily utilized to ensure many things don't get shot by fliers. GK do have a unit to deal with Fliers: Dreadknights which are one of the best flying MCs in the game. With the test games I have done so far (bearing in mind I have only done three) flying MCs are much harder to deal with than fliers, especially those with a 2+ save.
Dreadknights are a flying monstrous creatures? The only flying mcs in the book i see are the 2 daemons have and 1 tyranids have.
The flying rules talk about swooping is like a jump mc but with a few differences
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Yes, the FAQ makes them flying MCs when they take personal teleporter
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I think gun line armies like Tau and Gard will benefit the most from some of the fortificatios.
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Yes, the FAQ makes them flying MCs when they take personal teleporter
I hate to contradict you Bill as your a lot better at this game then i am but i just read the FAQ and the Personal Teleporters make them Jump MCs
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420373a_Grey_Knights_6th_Ed_V1.pdf
I think gun line armies like Tau and Gard will benefit the most from some of the fortificatios.
i need to go re-read the fortifications section again, but i assume xeno armies are allowed to take fortifications as well since i didn't see Tau, Tyranids, Eldar or Dark Eldar with any "Skyfire" weapons.
Maybe GWs intent is to force everyone to takes flyers to deal with flying threats (i think i saw somewhere online Tau is getting a flyer soon)
But back to what Bill was saying i agree fortifications is going to be a massive pain for tournaments, and one of the ways I've heard of getting around the double force org is to have a tournament of 1999 points to alleviate the problem. or i imagine BG can just say "hey no double force org guys"
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I am going to be paying attention to other tournaments (NOVA, specifically) very closely this summer.
If I has to guess I would say that tournaments are either going somewhat heavily restrict things at first and then peel back various things.... or the opposite.
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its also a ploy to sell more bastions and defence lines. Your right, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Tyrinids have Nothing to represent a fortification. Only Imperial and Chaos armies do. With Chaos armies you just have to shave off the imperial symobol, apply symbol of choice, and cover it with spikes skulls and chains.
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its also a ploy to sell more bastions and defence lines. Your right, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Tyrinids have Nothing to represent a fortification. Only Imperial and Chaos armies do. With Chaos armies you just have to shave off the imperial symobol, apply symbol of choice, and cover it with spikes skulls and chains.
I saw an interesting idea somewhere... how similar in dimensions are Necron Monoliths to bastions? Could you just plop down a monolith and call it a bastion? That would be cool considering that I still can't see much use for the actual monoliths themselves in this edition.
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its also a ploy to sell more bastions and defence lines. Your right, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Tyrinids have Nothing to represent a fortification. Only Imperial and Chaos armies do. With Chaos armies you just have to shave off the imperial symobol, apply symbol of choice, and cover it with spikes skulls and chains.
I'm sure it is a ploy to sell more fortifications, just like allies is a ploy to sell more everything, and the new flyers being so good are a ploy to sell flyers.
GW is not that stupid, they know if they put something new and shiny in front of us we will buy it in bulk lol
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yep! but if we want Xenos ones we gotta make our own.
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Yes, Teleporters make Dread Knights specifically "Jump MCs" as in "No fly for you......!"
I'm disappointed in it, as it would finally DKs worthwhile, but it does make a certain amount of sense, since they're NOT flying, they're kinda doing a Bleach style "flashstep".
On the other hand, it leaves this funny thing.......GKs use Dread knights specifically to fight Demon MCs like bloodthirsters (that's why they have the Dark Excommunication power).........almost all of whom have wings. Which means they can just stay stay flying and play a game of "You can't touch me!" How thematic is that?
Seperately, looking through the bestiary, and FAQs, there are precisely two (2!) Skyfire weapons in the current lineup. Hydras (which are kinda useless for anything else) and Flak missiles (which appear to be avaialbe to standard SM missile launchers, not much else, going by the bestiary in back)
And flyers, btw are ridiculous. Very hard for some armies to shoot down (really the more shots the easier, so Elite armies have a hard time while Orks, surprisingly, have a pretty easy time of it). It's all a very transparent ploy to force you into buying fliers and fortifications. I played my first game of 6th against Will's DE, and disagree strognly with Bill that they are hard to use due to overshooting. Moving 18" a turn, starting from the right point, it was fairly trivial for him to get 3 turns of shooting at what he wanted. And even though I had a Bastion with the lascannon, that just wasn't enough.
I'm sure there will be adaptions to this ( I should have brought my SR up his tail, but didn't want to for other tactical considerations, it being a transport I wanted to deliver troops) but overall, flyers are overwhelming, and fortifications are the maing counter to this.
Personally, I'd be ok with disallowing flying and fortifications (I'd still want to use my SR as a fast skimmer transport, please) but then we wouldn't really be playing 6th anymore. If you allow one, you have to allow the other.
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as an owner of a super heavy flier that gets shot down on a regular basis I assume the dice gods were just not with you. Fliers can be delt with with mass fire, or AA weapons. all fliers automaticly have AA now. So if your oponent is bugging you with a flier use yours and shoot him out of the sky!. I find the aspect of getting into dog fights quite thrilling and cant wait to do it. Rememver there are other ways to win games. Claim objectives, kill their warlord, get over the table edge first and kill something first. Unless you are tossing scenarios out the door and go lets just kill eachother using the basic rules then yes the game will suck and be no fun. In the end its just a beer and pretzils game.
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I think it's more an oversight that guard (and other armies) have nothing with skyfire. Shouldn't the Hydra and maybe the Manticore have it? There's also the flakk missles that can be fired from missle launchers, but they have to be bought as an upgrade. I think GW forgot about that when they did the updates and FAQs.
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Seperately, looking through the bestiary, and FAQs, there are precisely two (2!) Skyfire weapons in the current lineup. Hydras (which are kinda useless for anything else) and Flak missiles (which appear to be avaialbe to standard SM missile launchers, not much else, going by the bestiary in back)
I assumed the flak missles are in FAQs somewhere but i didnt see it in the vanilla marine faq so i dont know, it says specifically in the book that the flak missle is an upgrade for SOME mi ;)
Personally, I'd be ok with disallowing flying and fortifications (I'd still want to use my SR as a fast skimmer transport, please) but then we wouldn't really be playing 6th anymore. If you allow one, you have to allow the other.
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Personally, I'd be ok with disallowing flying and fortifications (I'd still want to use my SR as a fast skimmer transport, please) but then we wouldn't really be playing 6th anymore. If you allow one, you have to allow the other.
i have to agree with you there, GW seems to have designed 6th editions and flyers to be counterbalanced by fortifications, you take one away and the other is way overpowered
and i dont see ANYONE banning flyers so the only logical option is to allow fortifications and figuring out a way for xenos to get something with the skyfire rule... through an allied detachment?
the only other way to deal with flyers is GW seems to have FORCED us to include flyers in every army list
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I think it's more an oversight that guard (and other armies) have nothing with skyfire. Shouldn't the Hydra and maybe the Manticore have it? There's also the flakk missles that can be fired from missle launchers, but they have to be bought as an upgrade. I think GW forgot about that when they did the updates and FAQs.
Hydra does have it. IN fact, it doesn't have other use, since it can only snapfire at ground targets.
The way I read it (going off the bestiary in the back of the BRB), Flak missiles are integral to the basic imperial Missile launcher that SM troops and devastators and IG heavy weapons squads get. No other kind of missile launcher gets it, not even eldar, though.
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I think it's more an oversight that guard (and other armies) have nothing with skyfire. Shouldn't the Hydra and maybe the Manticore have it? There's also the flakk missles that can be fired from missle launchers, but they have to be bought as an upgrade. I think GW forgot about that when they did the updates and FAQs.
Hydra does have it. IN fact, it doesn't have other use, since it can only snapfire at ground targets.
The way I read it (going off the bestiary in the back of the BRB), Flak missiles are integral to the basic imperial Missile launcher that SM troops and devastators and IG heavy weapons squads get. No other kind of missile launcher gets it, not even eldar, though.
The flak thing stil isnt clear to me as it looks like you need to buy that upgrade with points.
from the book verbatim "All missile launchers come with frag and krak missiles as standard, and some have the option to upgrade to include flakk missiles. Each time a missile launcer fires, the controlling player must choose which type of missile is being fired"
it has separate entries for the typhoon and cyclone space marine missile launchers and looks like those do not get the option for flakk
As far as hydra it can fire at ground and air at normal BS because it doesnt have the interceptor rule.
A weapon with skyfire and interceptor rules is the one that can only take snap shots at ground targets
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I don't know where you're getting the "buy with pts" thing. The "Missile Launcher" (i.e. standard imperial) is the onyl one that has the flakk missile listed, no other.
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As far as hydra it can fire at ground and air at normal BS because it doesnt have the interceptor rule.
A weapon with skyfire and interceptor rules is the one that can only take snap shots at ground targets
You have that backwards. A skyfire system with intercept may fire at both land at air targets at normal BS. A skyfire only system may only snapfire at land targets.
No, I don't know why they conflated ground/air attack duality with a reaction fire ability, but they did.
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I don't know where you're getting the "buy with pts" thing. The "Missile Launcher" (i.e. standard imperial) is the onyl one that has the flakk missile listed, no other.
I think you're getting flakk and frag mixed up. The standard imperial missle launcher comes with both frag and krak missles. In the new book, page 57:
"All missle launchers come with frag and krak missiles as standard, and some have the option to upgrade to include flakk missiles. Each time a missle launcher fires, the controlling player must choose which type of missile is being used."
Flakk missiles are new, they are not in the guard codex and the guard update makes no mention of flakk missiles. I'm not sure if any of the other updates include the option or not as I have not read them. I think it's an oversite on GWs part, one that will hopefully be fixed soon.
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It looks like there are 3 ways to shoot down flyers.
1) Flyers and allied flyers
2) Fortifications
3) Allied detachment, everybody can ally with Guard so Hydra will be used a lot. I need to double check rules but it sounds like armies with missle launchers (Guard, Chaos marines, and Space marines) will also make good choices for flakk missle access depending own your own faction.
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As far as hydra it can fire at ground and air at normal BS because it doesnt have the interceptor rule.
A weapon with skyfire and interceptor rules is the one that can only take snap shots at ground targets
You have that backwards. A skyfire system with intercept may fire at both land at air targets at normal BS. A skyfire only system may only snapfire at land targets.
No, I don't know why they conflated ground/air attack duality with a reaction fire ability, but they did.
your right i did have that backwards, so basicly the Hydra Flakk tanks are REALLY overpriced now, and it just another reason to take a Aegis defense line as it can shoot at ground and air with full BS.
Another interesting thing abot the inteceptor rule is it gives you the option to fire at one unit that has arrived from reserves at the end of the ENEMY movement phase
so you just showed up with that stormraven? well it might not even get to shoot before i shoot it down
I don't know where you're getting the "buy with pts" thing. The "Missile Launcher" (i.e. standard imperial) is the onyl one that has the flakk missile listed, no other.
like i already said above in the book it's written exactly like this
"All missile launchers come with frag and krak missiles as standard, and some have the option to upgrade to include flakk missiles. Each time a missile launcer fires, the controlling player must choose which type of missile is being fired"
it says "some have the option to upgrade to include flakk missiles" now to me every time i've ever seen the words "upgrade" in a book or codex it involves spending points
hopefully GW comes out with a FAQ or something explaining this away
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I will be disappointed if it turns out that the only reasonable way to shoot down flyers is with fortifications. It seems to me that they could errata all types of stuff to have skyfire if they really wanted to. You can come up with a BS fluff reason pretty easily for almost anything
"A little known fact about Fire Prisms is that they come from the planet Zarg, which was frequently beset by airborne raids from the Necrons, so everybody on Zarg was trained from an early age to fire at fast moving objects in the sky." etc etc.
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I will be disappointed if it turns out that the only reasonable way to shoot down flyers is with fortifications. It seems to me that they could errata all types of stuff to have skyfire if they really wanted to. You can come up with a BS fluff reason pretty easily for almost anything
"A little known fact about Fire Prisms is that they come from the planet Zarg, which was frequently beset by airborne raids from the Necrons, so everybody on Zarg was trained from an early age to fire at fast moving objects in the sky." etc etc.
I think GW is using fortifications as the "i really dont want flyers in my army" answer to aerial defense.
It seems like they really want us to use (and buy) flyers for epic flyer on flyer air combat.
I really shunned flyers in my gk lists in 5th edition, now with the buffs to flyers and massive nerfs to rhinos i really need to rethink all my lists and buy some stormravens
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It's a blatant money making move, and it's really angering. In that vein, I really wouldn't mind if tournaments at large banned fliers, if for no other reason than to piss them off.
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Fateweaver can make a sweet wizard tower landing pad for his bros. Oh and he swoops. yippeee!!!
On a serious note, the fortifications seem ok, but theres no army that really needs them and theres none that if the points are there it isnt totally worth having. Flying MCs have the most potential out of anything (way, way over fliers). Vehicles are almost completely underwhelmed with the new rules. The power weapon thing sucks for those who just wanted to have something look cool, but it is nice to see the options. The allies matrix is really awesome for casual games where fluffy mixes make for a true army, but has huge potential to be broken, I doubt you will see many tournaments supporting it, however it has great potential to influence how doubles tourneys will work. The crb powers are not really OP or bad, so there is some options there, although I laughed the 6 (which in fantasy is the 'ultimate') for fire is just a meltagun. The 29784536 new special rules/keywords are a bit daunting but most are pretty much things that already exsisted but fell under misc. categories.
Overall, I like this edition a whole lot more. It will be really exciting to see how things unfold in the coming months.
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It's a blatant money making move, and it's really angering. In that vein, I really wouldn't mind if tournaments at large banned fliers, if for no other reason than to piss them off.
You've hit the nail on the head, it's incerdibly blatent.
Either buy fortifications that few people up until now have wasted money on, or buy our shiny new flyers if you want to be able to beat other peoples armies.
Because for 6th edition we've given you NOTHING in your codexs/ existing armies that can shoot back at them
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They are a Company I think making money is always their concern. Fortifications are one of those things that you will use or you will not. I love the Idea of Fortifications cause people will either build or make their own terrain that they will be able to bring around with them and show off at tournaments bringing another level to the Best Painted Army.
I dont have a Rulebook yet. But if someone makes a really awesome Tau type fortification for example he goes to a tournament and has an awesome Display Board that incorporates His Fortification I would love to see it. This is a Hobby Game and this is something as hobbyists you can get around by building your own. Matt saw me Saturday night Someone threw away a bunch of Empty Plastic Sprues from their Gaunts. I Took it home cause with It I can make Tank Traps heat it up a little stretch it out I can make barbed wired. How much is it going to cost me absolutely nothing extra cause I can use scrap materials. I know people are going to say I don't have the time or the ability. Practice Makes perfect and its not something you need to do all at once but if your still convinced by that then Games-workshop gives you an alternative which is buy some of theirs but they won't give it to you for free that is just silly.
BLAST WEAPONS are the bane of Flyers your scattering on a BS of 1 yes that can scatter a lot but you face a 1/3 chance of hitting compared to 1/6. Vindicator, Leman Russes, the Railguns on Tau Tanks, and probably others. You direct hit 1/3 of the time and the scatter if its like 6 or less will probably still clip the flyer and cause of the new rules the center doesn't have to be over the hull for the Weapon to be at full strength. Flyers are killable they aren't invincible and most of the armies do have something to deal with them. I will be shooting your Flyers out of the Sky with my Vindicators and Thunderfire cannons. Have a NIce Day.
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You cannot hit flyers with blasts or templates. Makes sense, if you think about it.
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I think the game is a huge improvement. If I played an alien army I would make my own bastion. I really dont get all the qqing over flyers and Bastions every army has plenty of answers. You only need to make one investment into a new unit and thats it, it will last you.
If you dont feel like giving GW money which I dont disagree, then make your own. Its so easy to take some foam trays glue bits on, glue on a gun array and call it a bastion. Just cause they have a bastion kit doesnt mean you have to use it.
As for Flyers if your army doesnt get one, then make a bastion and give it a gun that can knock em down or if you get missles find the faq that probably is out some where thats says you get Skyfire. flyers can be answered 3 ways, other flyers, Defences with a skyfire weapon, or a missle launcher plenty of options in my opinion.
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also its not like your going to be able to load up on anti aircraft useing bastions. your only allowed one fortification per primary detachment. From what i can see none of the fortifications can get more than one gun with skyfire limiting you to a single weapon from fortifications that can easily shoot at flyers.
that said they took away the old minus 12 inches on all shooting against flyers so any gun you have can in theory be shot at it. in some cases its almost a good thing.. so your heavy weapons platoon has been forced to move or be overrun by the necrons your forced to snap fire those autocannons anyways why not do so at the flyer. with glanceing hits being so effective at wrecking vehicles now super accurate fire wont be totally nessesary to take down flyers.
as to the original subject of fortifications, they dont bother me at all. so you spent your points on an immobile transport that I am allowed to throw grenades into, kill your squad and take for myself...I am oddly ok with that.
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as to the original subject of fortifications, they dont bother me at all. so you spent your points on an immobile transport that I am allowed to throw grenades into, kill your squad and take for myself...I am oddly ok with that.
You forgot you can flame thrower into the fortification im ok with that too. I see lists using Flammers and Heavy Flammers in the near future too flush out infintry in cover.
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Personally I think BG should run one tournament at <2000 points with no restrictions before we start worrying about what is, and isn't allowed.
I completely disagree with Bill about the usefullness of fliers. Good players will be able to use fliers very effectively.
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I'd rather try it out at 2000 pts, frankly, just get all the rules out at once.
Yeah, flyers can pretty easily shoot for 3 rounds without "overshooting", it's pretty ridiculous.
Hey, I think they got rid of "escorting" fleeing units off the board. That's a nice change, tank shock was dumb enough already.
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We have a Feast of Blades qualifier (2000 points) on August 4th. We will not have any restrictions there unless they force us to.
I wish I could do 1750 with no restrictions, but they want 2000.
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Yayyyyyyy!!!!!!!! can I reserve my spot now?
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Not yet. The event post will be going up either really late tonight or sometime tomorrow afternoon. Probably tomorrow afternoon based on the rate at which I'm getting shit done today. :(
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Not yet. The event post will be going up either really late tonight or sometime tomorrow afternoon. Probably tomorrow afternoon based on the rate at which I'm getting shit done today. :(
Since everything is new, can we use forgeworld lists and models? :)
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Since everything is new, can we use forgeworld lists and models? :)
No.