Battleground Games Forum
Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: SyRael on August 19, 2012, 07:56:45 PM
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Another great year, another great disorder, um...
Let us start a recap about the best moments and the worst; what played well in 6th ed and what rolled ones. I enjoyed this years game and I think it had a lot to do with the people who came and played along with great looking tables. Post your thoughts, coments, and best memories of this years event.
Brandon
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I had a moment of panic when a line of multiple Hierodules (Tyranid Gargantuan creatures), Hive tyrants, and Tyrannofexes ran up to my gunline and a smoke screen obscured my line of sight to them. Then it rained Mycetic Spores....
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Well I have two issues from MegaBattle, in how things were executed not so much in things that happened. Firstly with the double Ambush asset. In 6th edition, wounds are put to the model not the unit. Therefore a unit of 100 models that comes on the table, if you are hitting it with two Ambushes, each model should have two shots put on it, not the unit having 200 shots put on the unit. I argued this point at the game and was overruled, but I still think this was applied incorrectly.
The bigger issue is, that this shouldn't have happened in the first place. That unit was supposed to be on the table from the get go, partially protected by the sweet night provided by the Ork's Necron allies. Since most of the Necron codex was banned/then not banned, it forced our Necrons to revamp their list and drastically change our tactics right before the game. In a game where the rules are already set up heavily in favor of Space Marines (yes I know that that is GW's cash cow and so I accept and understand why that is) that right before hand that rules where ripped out of the game that gave non-space marine armies a way to compete. The one turn of night fighting by the "Lords of Twilight" asset didn't really hamper the order side all that much considering all their vehicles have ways of dealing with night fighting already. Supposedly it isn't "fun" to make imperial players have to deal with night fighting, but it is apparently "fun" to have non-power armored players to set up 100 models, then to immediately take off 100 models with zero die rolls on their part. It still annoys me that I lost 1/4 of my army and I had no die rolls to do anything about it, because we had to change tactics because major abilities of our side were banned.
It was unfortunate that this was all an issue, since for me it soured an otherwise great event. It was a great deal of fun and a lot of cool things happened. I will post some of those later, I just wanted to get this out of my system.
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So, while I was on the moon, fighting against the nids, I was a little curious on how the whole thing played out with this.
Well I have two issues from MegaBattle, in how things were executed not so much in things that happened. Firstly with the double Ambush asset. In 6th edition, wounds are put to the model not the unit. Therefore a unit of 100 models that comes on the table, if you are hitting it with two Ambushes, each model should have two shots put on it, not the unit having 200 shots put on the unit. I argued this point at the game and was overruled, but I still think this was applied incorrectly.
At first when I heard about this I was a little curious, horrified and I admit I giggled a little at the silliness of how effective one (or two) assets could be. What struck me the most was how it was handled. While it's always fun to troll people, making someone place all 100 first, without telling them what is about to happen can be a little less than gentlemanly. You know, so you can decide to not place everything just to pull it all off again.
The next, on to the rules idea. It seemed odd to me about how it was executed in terms of simultaneous shooting. I guess since they were both declared they both happened simultaneously?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but let me run through the events as far as I understand it:
1. Orks walked on to the field via flank march asset
2. Ambush was declared by 2 different order players
3. 200 dice were rolled against the unit
4. 95 orks died and were removed from the table
Things that leap out to me that need clarification (far more than power axes vs. power swords)
-6th edition dictates that you must roll against the closest model. Where does the shooting of the ambush come from?
-If it comes from anywhere, how does it interact with cover, etc.
-iirc, 6th edition rules say you remove the closest model and then keep rolling wounds until all the reachable models are killed.
Now, from the receiving angle, how do you think it could have gone differently considering how 6th edition wound allocation happened and the lack of direction of the shots?
The bigger issue is, that this shouldn't have happened in the first place. That unit was supposed to be on the table from the get go, partially protected by the sweet night provided by the Ork's Necron allies. Since most of the Necron codex was banned/then not banned, it forced our Necrons to revamp their list and drastically change our tactics right before the game. In a game where the rules are already set up heavily in favor of Space Marines (yes I know that that is GW's cash cow and so I accept and understand why that is) that right before hand that rules where ripped out of the game that gave non-space marine armies a way to compete. The one turn of night fighting by the "Lords of Twilight" asset didn't really hamper the order side all that much considering all their vehicles have ways of dealing with night fighting already. Supposedly it isn't "fun" to make imperial players have to deal with night fighting, but it is apparently "fun" to have non-power armored players to set up 100 models, then to immediately take off 100 models with zero die rolls on their part. It still annoys me that I lost 1/4 of my army and I had no die rolls to do anything about it, because we had to change tactics because major abilities of our side were banned.
I know this feeling well. I can tell you that the forums on the order side were quiet on this. We found out later that some necron dude was banned. Then he was unbanned. I was unconcerned for two reasons, 1) on the moon so it didn't affect me directly 2) well... unsurprised in some ways.
It was unfortunate that this was all an issue, since for me it soured an otherwise great event. It was a great deal of fun and a lot of cool things happened. I will post some of those later, I just wanted to get this out of my system.
I hear you. Seriously. All the armies of the Imperium have some tricks and when combined with datasheets and each other become down right crazy. It's always overshadowed by the obviousness of things. I mean, on a powerscale, you don't get more obvious than a banelord or An'ggrath. Then everyone forgets about the Assault terminators, thunderwolves and other derpy units that just crush things and are from the original codecies. Never mind that titan hammer squads which... if read a certain way are absolutely ridiculous.
I mean, we played on the moon against a bunch of nid players. Now they brought some big stuff to bear, but so did we. Across 32,000 points only 1 d weapon on the table. Why was there only 1 d weapon on the table? Because we already were at an advantage based on general codex strength.
40k as a game, rules wise, is inherently unbalanced. As a thematic, story driven game it is wonderful. It requires a lot of "gentlemen's" agreements otherwise it's too easy for the boat to tip in one direction.
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The heart of the issue is that without any conversation and only hours before the main event this was what was banned from my codex:
Units:
Imotekh
Crypteks who can solar pulse
Cryptek Of Transmogrification
C'tans Abilities which included anything to do with table altering (3 of )
Wargear:
Tremorstave
Seismic Crucible
and all other units who can do these / use these from the codex
All in all after the complete list of bans was decided I lost about 45 % of my codex and no longer could play the night-lock tremor-cron army that I bought and modeled for this event because as Chase stated it would not be "fun and fair" to the order side. Then several other events like ambush happened. Now I personally do not care out the power of assets and that is not the issue. What I care about is that at this level of competition it should be all or nothing, not ban a codex then let everything else go. Our side had a plan in place with the army I built, it was then ripped from the game, and by 7:00 the night of after I had broke apart and re-modeled my army to make it legal, it was unbanned. Yet, because of the respect I have for both Derek and the community I brought a lesser form of what I planned to bring. One can understand my frustration. And in truth, I am kind of pissed at the way Chase had called me out personally about the rule changes. "The necron codex is to blame for this" is the last statement of his main post in general forums and after hearing a few comments (that I know where hearsay) from order players that he made, I am upset that an employee representative who had been dealing with this issue in privet team forums would bring it out to the community in such a way. Granted I hold nothing against him and understand that in the heat of stress shit gets said and done. Next year like I tried to do this year in Jan. we will all have to really discuses how go about this issues. The event is hard enough to plan and run; and I know that last thing anyone wants is to mare up such an awesome time. And it was. As always Derek and Chase (all others who helped) thank you for another great year and look forward to many more. Disorder is planning the come back. (12 Pylons?)
Brandon
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It sucks that you had to go through that dude :/
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I'd just like to point out that the only models / powers banned were:
Imotekh the Storm Lord Megabattle Ruiner
and
The Necron that makes the entire board difficult terrain
Then we unbanned them and restricted ALL board-wide effects.
I'll say it here again, if the reasons why these models were banned is unclear I really don't know what I can say. If you think it has to do with the killing potential of these figures, you're entirely incorrect.
The Necron book WAS the reason for the restriction. Each year we've pealed restrictions back further and further. When all board wide effects get restricted, especially last minute, people want a reason. Instead of a few phone calls and several emails having to explain to everyone the entire situation, I told them what the reason was.
Things that are probably not obvious to everyone is that the two primary concerns I have with the Megabattle are:
1) The speed of the game.
2) People being able to actually play the game.
Imotekh will:
1) Slow down the game.
2) Potentially deny players from playing for multiple turns. (Lol, oops, it's Night Fight again, lol)
Things I've learned not to worry about:
1) TONS of stuff dying to well played Super Heavies or Assests.
Flank Marching a Green Tide is a super cheese move. Smoking a Green Tide with two uses of Ambush is too. That's the Megabattle. Sometimes it sucks like that. Tons of shit dies in a matter of seconds.
In my opinion, that situation is a LOT different than "Well... 80% of my army can't shoot because they can't see anything. I guess I'll just move and hope."
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Not that I was there, but chase you realize that Nightfighting is just 36" now is maximum shooting distance and there are just ranges for cover saves....
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Flank marching a green tide is suicide. It's dumb, if a bit orky but not cheesey.
EDIT:
Because I was on my phone, I couldn't clarify. You cannot assault after coming in from reserve unless you have rules that override it. So a green tide that does so is just toast when 2 leman russes give it a little attention.
Were all the ideas of being unfair made without a conscious thought of all the rules?
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All I have to say is Vortex Grenade and punching Titans with Powerfists ftw.
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really the night fighting was a minor part of it, is simply the fact that any single model that adds potentially 100+ extra die rolls each turn is going to be a problem, we barely got through 3 turns in 10 hours, if everyone had to roll for difficult plus lighting strikes we might as well change that to 2 turns in 10 hours.
I do have some ideas in mind for allowing the storm lord to be used, be fun, be effective but not slow the game to a crawl. the big thing is going to be working out a way to get interceptors done in less than 45 minutes.
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really the night fighting was a minor part of it, is simply the fact that any single model that adds potentially 100+ extra die rolls each turn is going to be a problem, we barely got through 3 turns in 10 hours, if everyone had to roll for difficult plus lighting strikes we might as well change that to 2 turns in 10 hours.
I do have some ideas in mind for allowing the storm lord to be used, be fun, be effective but not slow the game to a crawl. the big thing is going to be working out a way to get interceptors done in less than 45 minutes.
Does anyone remember how long it took for Turn 1, I think I recall notices it almost done around the 4 hour mark :)
Cheers,
Alan
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What left a bad taste in my mouth was poor attitudes by some players both Order and Disorder whow ill remain nameless less they really want to be called out. Also the fact that I was ignorent of rules that are barely 2 months old its my fault? Sorry no. Lastly a model that did not have a special rule and there was no rule book to confirm its ability was killing my stuff left and right before my stuff could even do anything all because it had a rule played on it it was not supposed to have. I could not play a good hunk of the game because Flyers can be intercepted and oh look theyw ere carrying a good hunk of my army. If they get blown up AFTER they drop my army fine what ever they did their job but it sucks they get blown up before I have a chance to do ANYTHING. Necron Pylons having a 180 inch range and apprently line of site to flyers was dumb. We basicly had to play Simon Says with the Necrons and all fliers had to come in in the safest spot on the board which was covered by Ork Flak guns.
In the end its just a game with plastic Men dice and measuring tape so im not all that upset. Just the poor Attitudes of some select players sealed my army's demise and ticked me off. If I did not deal with poor attitudes with the demise of my army I probably would care less. Its a game have fun leave the attitude problems at the door.
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My first megabattle, it was indeed an amazing time. I caught some issues here and there but there always are. With 6th ed just coming out, it was actually the first game i played of it and enjoyed it greatly. Thank you all for an awesome game! Made the ride from jersey with Mr. Hong and Mr. Do worth it!
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Also the fact that I was ignorent of rules that are barely 2 months old its my fault? Sorry no.
Lastly a model that did not have a special rule and there was no rule book to confirm its ability was killing my stuff left and right before my stuff could even do anything all because it had a rule played on it it was not supposed to have.
Actually Steve -- Yes, while it's ok not to be an expert on the rules, you should be prepared then to look up the relevant rules as they come up.
It sucks that that happened to you, but if something shoots at you and you don't know what it is, and it sounds fishy, ask to see the rules for that unit -- everyone is supposed to bring the rules for that relevant unit during the Megabattle.
I do feel bad that your stuff got shot down, but let's use this as a lesson for the future -- the person doing the shooting could also have just misread his rules and didn't know what he was doing was wrong.
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Also the fact that I was ignorent of rules that are barely 2 months old its my fault? Sorry no.
Lastly a model that did not have a special rule and there was no rule book to confirm its ability was killing my stuff left and right before my stuff could even do anything all because it had a rule played on it it was not supposed to have.
Actually Steve -- Yes, while it's ok not to be an expert on the rules, you should be prepared then to look up the relevant rules as they come up.
It sucks that that happened to you, but if something shoots at you and you don't know what it is, and it sounds fishy, ask to see the rules for that unit -- everyone is supposed to bring the rules for that relevant unit during the Megabattle.
I do feel bad that your stuff got shot down, but let's use this as a lesson for the future -- the person doing the shooting could also have just misread his rules and didn't know what he was doing was wrong.
the other problem was when my stuff was getting shot down i was on the other side of the table and not witnessing the rolls but all the imperial players on that side juist went with it and said my stuff was shot down
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Things I've learned not to worry about:
1) TONS of stuff dying to well played Super Heavies or Assests.
Personally, I think you should worry about that less than you are. In the process of dealing with tar pit problems like night fight (though, as stated, it's different now and you may want to reconsider how that's going to change how problematic it is) it seems as though you start to worry about things that really won't cause that much of a problem. Live and let live for the crazy stuff. Again, for game slowing things I can understand how important it is, but just that.
Further, on the idea of the infamous ambush, I'm really confused how anybody is reading it as 200 dice should have been rolled for the unit. Since when are two assets EVER resolved simultaneously? If two people have an orbital bombardment and target the same area, who in their right mind would argue that both players should put it down at once and both do wounds to a full unit? Who would argue that two different players shooting at a unit should resolve their shots at the same time?
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Things I've learned not to worry about:
1) TONS of stuff dying to well played Super Heavies or Assests.
Further, on the idea of the infamous ambush, I'm really confused how anybody is reading it as 200 dice should have been rolled for the unit. Since when are two assets EVER resolved simultaneously? If two people have an orbital bombardment and target the same area, who in their right mind would argue that both players should put it down at once and both do wounds to a full unit? Who would argue that two different players shooting at a unit should resolve their shots at the same time?
I agree with you.
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So yeah there was a lot of hiccups, people were upset (I know I was pissed, but oh well), and there seems to be a ton of little issues to work out before the next time this happens. I figured that this would be the case considering the new rules dropped right before the game.
On to three really cool things that I saw (which both happened to me at my end of the table)
That really awesome looking Eldar Titan that hammered my MekBoy Stompa, but was unable to kill it. Then the one lone UltraSmurf from the squad that did not get stomped to death hopped onto the quad gun and wrecking the stompa with a desperate last shot.
The UltraSmurf chapter master surviving
1) A lifta-droppa smacking his land raider into a vindacator
2) A Deth Kannon blast on said two vehicles
3) 9 Kannon shots, 50 Loota shots
4) A bunch of fire from 1kSons
5) I wasn't there when he finally died, but he absorbed an insane amount of fire. Really damn impressive.
The UltraSmurf Terminators that sealed the game for the Order side. The final charge of Ork Nobs, Dark Eldar, and 1kSons....which still didn't kill them all. Held the objective and made sure that Order lost. Another impressive showing.
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Also the fact that I was ignorent of rules that are barely 2 months old its my fault? Sorry no.
Lastly a model that did not have a special rule and there was no rule book to confirm its ability was killing my stuff left and right before my stuff could even do anything all because it had a rule played on it it was not supposed to have.
Actually Steve -- Yes, while it's ok not to be an expert on the rules, you should be prepared then to look up the relevant rules as they come up.
It sucks that that happened to you, but if something shoots at you and you don't know what it is, and it sounds fishy, ask to see the rules for that unit -- everyone is supposed to bring the rules for that relevant unit during the Megabattle.
I do feel bad that your stuff got shot down, but let's use this as a lesson for the future -- the person doing the shooting could also have just misread his rules and didn't know what he was doing was wrong.
the other problem was when my stuff was getting shot down i was on the other side of the table and not witnessing the rolls but all the imperial players on that side juist went with it and said my stuff was shot down
:( That sucks dude. Well, let that be a lesson to them as well.
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Made the ride from jersey with Mr. Hong and Mr. Do worth it!
Now that means it really must have been good 8)
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Lastly a model that did not have a special rule and there was no rule book to confirm its ability was killing my stuff left and right before my stuff could even do anything all because it had a rule played on it it was not supposed to have. I could not play a good hunk of the game because Flyers can be intercepted and oh look theyw ere carrying a good hunk of my army. If they get blown up AFTER they drop my army fine what ever they did their job but it sucks they get blown up before I have a chance to do ANYTHING.
I assuming this is a crack against my 1 Ork Flakkatrakk, unit from Apocalypse Reloaded (And I did have the rules there for it). Similar unit to the Ork Flakk Trakk in IA8 and Imperial Armour Aeronautica (IAA), just with less armor and less weapons (and 15 points less expensive with a special rule about moving flat out and shooting that never came in to play). It was not updated in the new IAA, but its gun was. Ork Flakk Gunz have interceptor and Skyfire. If Flakk Gunz from an old book are not the same as Flakk Gunz from a new book, I would have pulled off one loota and had a stronger vehicle that could fire even more. I figured that it was like the DA codex and things like the cyclone launcher, that was changed in later books. The other Flakk gun was an imperial Quad Gun from the Aegis defensive line, like the one on the imperial side that killed my Stompa.
I knew that flyers were going to be a big deal so I tried to bring as much AA and SF/Interceptor as I could (lootas, Flakk, Quad, 3 AA Flyers). I was going to build a Ork Battlefortress with 3 Flakk Gunz, I just never got motivated to do it.
As for killing your army in the Stormeagle, I didn't know the rules ran that way. I am sorry it happened that way (trust me, I know how you feel), but I didn't write the rules, heck I didn't even know what happened was possible. If someone better versed in the rules was not there, I would not have known any better. It seems unless you are a Necron, flying transports are risky.
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Hey, over all the event was great fun. The crap about Imoteck is just a side note and it has been ruled he will be played next year along with all other cron fun. After talking to Derek we have agreed that like all other HQs he will be, along with his bolts of death, limited to the same 36 in range that farseer and others are. This was how he was going to be played this year and never was going to bog down the game in any way. At most maybe 5 units he would roll on, not table wide. This was what had been said in Jan. and will be played next year unless changed otherwise. We all had a great time. It is truly an event that I want to be apart every year. This kind of talk back between players all apart of the game. For rules not being brought, that is uncool. I was told to have the new 6 ed. rules for the pylons and if others on my team did not have thiers then yes that order player has a right to be upset. However, at any time anyone can ask to see the rules of anything brought. No rules, no play. We should rest the damn Imoteck issues for this year, the game is over and I did not even bring him. Next year he is coming with limited range that will not create any table wide game bogging effects. I do agree that the nature of flyers has changed and the can be shotdown with ease. It is the way of the new game. I know for me at least 4 pylons will be apart of my list maybe more. I have always brought them and always will. Hey, they blow up easy when a baneblade unloads. Bring more baneblades. Over all I love this game, I love this store, and most of all this group of gamers. I want to play with no other group. Hey Camp, come our way for more games. I need another "dirty long haired hippy type" on my table. They all have crew cuts.
With respect,
Brandon
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Hey I just wanted to add one more thing (especially since I never meet any of y'all before the game), there are no hard feeling on my part about the game or any of the players. Still had an awesome time.
Yes, I got upset, but it was not directed an anyone...hell, I play Orks...I LIKE watching my guys die, that is why I have so many of them...as long as it is from like a tank, or one of my weirdboyz blowing up.
Limping around all day before then (and the pain meds wearing out) didn't help my mood at that point. Just wanted to say that I was sorry if I made anyone upset with the fact that I got upset (does that make any sense?).
SyRael, maybe I will stop by Abington some night after classes start to have some new people blow up my Orks.
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Lastly a model that did not have a special rule and there was no rule book to confirm its ability was killing my stuff left and right before my stuff could even do anything all because it had a rule played on it it was not supposed to have. I could not play a good hunk of the game because Flyers can be intercepted and oh look theyw ere carrying a good hunk of my army. If they get blown up AFTER they drop my army fine what ever they did their job but it sucks they get blown up before I have a chance to do ANYTHING.
I assuming this is a crack against my 1 Ork Flakkatrakk, unit from Apocalypse Reloaded (And I did have the rules there for it). Similar unit to the Ork Flakk Trakk in IA8 and Imperial Armour Aeronautica (IAA), just with less armor and less weapons (and 15 points less expensive with a special rule about moving flat out and shooting that never came in to play). It was not updated in the new IAA, but its gun was. Ork Flakk Gunz have interceptor and Skyfire. If Flakk Gunz from an old book are not the same as Flakk Gunz from a new book, I would have pulled off one loota and had a stronger vehicle that could fire even more. I figured that it was like the DA codex and things like the cyclone launcher, that was changed in later books. The other Flakk gun was an imperial Quad Gun from the Aegis defensive line, like the one on the imperial side that killed my Stompa.
I knew that flyers were going to be a big deal so I tried to bring as much AA and SF/Interceptor as I could (lootas, Flakk, Quad, 3 AA Flyers). I was going to build a Ork Battlefortress with 3 Flakk Gunz, I just never got motivated to do it.
As for killing your army in the Stormeagle, I didn't know the rules ran that way. I am sorry it happened that way (trust me, I know how you feel), but I didn't write the rules, heck I didn't even know what happened was possible. If someone better versed in the rules was not there, I would not have known any better. It seems unless you are a Necron, flying transports are risky.
No worries man its just a game and crap happens. I just wish I was a little more informed on how I could have saved my army heh. I finaly at least got to use my storm Talons for a couple rounds and they did earn their point values in destruction.
In the end its just a real big game of Army men with dice and rules nothing to worry about and I appreciate you commenting dude. As i said when I was there your Orks look awsome! You make Gork and Mork Proud sir!