Double Force Org at 2000+ Points?

[keithb]

So, exactly my point.

Very few, if any of us have the models to fully take advantage of a double FOC.

I have no incentive to purchase the models to take full advantage unless we will semi-regularly be running events with double FOC.

So, we can't truly test the double FOC without significant monetary investment from all players, at which point we might all feel it is bull shit and not want to do it.  So, we all wasted a lot of money.

Even if it is awesome, I double all BG events will be 2000+ points, meaning most events will still not use double FOC, which means it is still a waste of money.   

The TOTAL number of major WHFB events to use the "Grand Army" rules (basically doubling the FOC) is....

Ardboyz.   that is all.  No one runs it, no one wants to run it.  Everyone has been able to see the GW money grab both with grand army rules and Storm of magic.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Very few, if any of us have the models to fully take advantage of a double FOC.

Well, I do.

(unless by "fully" you mean "fill all the slots" which just a crazy strawman arguement)

I'm not some crazy model-meister, either.  I have two armies, Tau and GK.  Around about 3000 pts of each I think.

I have some Tau sniper drones.  Never use them.  Why?  Because even though they're dirt cheap, they take up a heavy slot.  And a Tau player jsut sin't going to take anything but broadsides and hammerheads with only 3 slots.  Same thing with the skyray.  I really like it, but I'm not going to ditch a hammerhead for it. 

Elites slots, too.  Presumably, in the next codex, you'll be able to make suits troops in some way.  But for now, Tau players Elites slots are crammed full.  I find myself taking super expensive bodyguards for my Shas'O so that I can free up a slot just to take some stealth suits. 


For my GKs, it's much less a problem.  I suppose it would be nice to fit in a few random cheap inquisitors in a few places, but that's about it. 

But again, see what I mean?  It helps out the old codexes, mostly. 

[keithb]

So.. you don't have the models then.


Why take the less good thing just because you have space now, why not take more of the best thing?  Can you max out on the best thing?  No?  Then you are not taking full advantage.

[MM3791]

@ 2000pts you can't even fill in all the Double FOC, I don't know why this keeps coming up.

Keith, if you don't mind could you please try and make a 2000pt, 2x FOC that you think is "overpowered". I'd love to see it, but like bigfoot.. I don't think it exists.

[keithb]

Or, you can explain to me why one FOC is balanced at 1999points and two FOC is balanced at 2000 points.


Look the whole point is, this was not done with a SINGLE thought by GW for competitive play.   We should acknowledge this and treat it as such.


@ MM, of course you can fill it up.  But that isn't the point.  I wasn't suggesting the issue would be someone literally just using up all the slots.  There are tons of cheap, awful choices in the game.  That doesn't mean I want them.

We don't know what all the best lists are yet, but why would you think it doesn't exist?  There were overpowered lists in 5th ed.  I don't think things have changed THAT much.  Why would it be different.  Armies that have point efficient, solid options will get better at double FOC, armies that have overpriced, less solid choices will do worse.  This should be obvious.

[Sir_Prometheus]

So.. you don't have the models then.


Why take the less good thing just because you have space now, why not take more of the best thing?  Can you max out on the best thing?  No?  Then you are not taking full advantage.

Seriously?  You're gonna go with the "if 3 was good, 6 must be better" angle?  Only Noobs think that. 

[Sir_Prometheus]

@ 2000pts you can't even fill in all the Double FOC, I don't know why this keeps coming up.

Keith, if you don't mind could you please try and make a 2000pt, 2x FOC that you think is "overpowered". I'd love to see it, but like bigfoot.. I don't think it exists.

Also, I second that motion. 

[keithb]

So.. you don't have the models then.


Why take the less good thing just because you have space now, why not take more of the best thing?  Can you max out on the best thing?  No?  Then you are not taking full advantage.

Seriously?  You're gonna go with the "if 3 was good, 6 must be better" angle?  Only Noobs think that.

I was just pointing out that "Taking shit I don't normally take because it isn't as good and now have room"  Is not taking full advantage.  Noob.

[keithb]

@ 2000pts you can't even fill in all the Double FOC, I don't know why this keeps coming up.

Keith, if you don't mind could you please try and make a 2000pt, 2x FOC that you think is "overpowered". I'd love to see it, but like bigfoot.. I don't think it exists.

Also, I second that motion.

Relevancy = 0

At battleground, I think the most "overpowered" thing is whatever is going to beat Bill Souza's list, since he seems to win everything.

Double FOC will create a lot more RPS matchups, which is not good for the game.

[Sir_Prometheus]

So.. you don't have the models then.


Why take the less good thing just because you have space now, why not take more of the best thing?  Can you max out on the best thing?  No?  Then you are not taking full advantage.

Seriously?  You're gonna go with the "if 3 was good, 6 must be better" angle?  Only Noobs think that.

I was just pointing out that "Taking shit I don't normally take because it isn't as good and now have room"  Is not taking full advantage.  Noob.

Just not true.  Or I would be taking 3 psyflemen, or 6, or whatever.  But I don't.  C'mon.  Admit you're just ranting about basically nothing. 

[keithb]

Admit you haven't gotten my point yet.  Which has nothing to do with how many slots of the Double FOC you can fill and with what.

[Sir_Prometheus]

I thought I just disagreed with you. But:

Which has nothing to do with how many slots of the Double FOC you can fill and with what.

Obviously, I did not.  So what, exactly is your point?  Because, "how many slots of the Double FOC you can fill and with what" is mostly what you've been talking about.

[keithb]

Cash monies.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Right.  SO that bothers you, but the allies (gateway drug to other armies), Flyers and Fortifications (buy them or get run over) doesn't?

[keithb]

Right.  SO that bothers you, but the allies (gateway drug to other armies), Flyers and Fortifications (buy them or get run over) doesn't?

It all bothers me, but the Double FOC seems like something we can simply not include.  Due to the Flier rules, it seems allies/terrain are actually helpful for competitiveness.

the other point would be Single FOC at 2000 never really seemed that restrictive, why change it now?