Author Topic: Long convo with GW today.  (Read 15303 times)

Chase

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Long convo with GW today.
« on: January 20, 2014, 06:14:18 PM »
Had a long, interesting convo with my GW rep today.  It was pretty insightful.

Here are some notes, in no particular order...


-GW is not concerning themselves with game balance or competitive play in any respect.

-GW is totally fine with TOs tweaking the rules to create a more balanced game in / for tournament settings.  [Lots of talk about how GW tried the tournament scene and how independent TOs do a much, much better job.  They'd rather let the TOs run events and tweak the rules to create game balance in a tournament / competitive setting.]

-Supplements aren't designed with game balance in mind.  They are designed with fun / cool in mind.  [He sighted FoB and what they did with the Escalation rules many, many times over the ~hour long convo.]

-Expect to see more movement towards giving players the opportunity to use the models they own in games of 40k.

-GW has no PR department.  There will be no official announcement about any of this stuff or any article in WD.  They'd like people like me to communicate this sort of thing and "steer" the community in whatever direction we'd like based on it.

-While the stock did drop 25% overnight, based on that report, he went on at length about how GW is a dividend company and is still going to be paying out it's dividends.  Something about how 4 people own almost all of GW (stock), how profits on the whole are down (duh) but profit per dollar spent is way up (also duh).  Blah Blah, this means little.

-Weekly releases, which most of us knew about.

-Weekly WD starting in Feb.

-Monthly 230+ page magazine.

-The people that write the rules often don't remember what they write. [Spoke about convos he's had or been involved in with writers or stories he's heard.  Mentioned one instance of a guy asking one of the writers about a rule he wrote and the writer responded with something like, "yeah, that sounds cool.  why don't you guys play it that way from now on."]

-Costs increase.  They are not targeting everyone.  They "are not going to open a GW store in Compton."

-They recognize they have priced new or potential players out of their games and plan to "address it."

-The term "gray beards" was used to compare GW gamers to model train guys.  An older, wealthier, group that doesn't see a ton of new people entering the hobby.

-They view the ~$200 start up cost as something that will provide the average person with a month's worth of "entertainment," comparable to roughly 3 video games.

-The rep dislikes the fact that people that are not qualified to write articles on GWs financial situation, policies, or direction often write articles on the internet that people take as gospel.

-They want to sell models based on coolness factor, not on price tag.  Cited an example where they reduced the price of WHFB cavalry models to 25 bucks (from 45) and there was absolutely no change in volume. (which, to be fair, IS a valid point.  when it comes to lots of model miniatures, if people want it, they're going to buy it.  at some point everyone will begin to consider price, but that number is different from person to person.)


There might be some more, but it's a holiday and I'm swamped in here.


EDIT:

-Mentioned how the Tau and Eldar books were mistakes in that they elevated expectations for the remaining 6th ed books.  Said not to expect all (any) books to be quite on that level going forward.  Mentioned how it's probably nice for "us" that the books were so strong. [brought up after i mentioned the tyranid book, escalation, dataslates.]
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 07:55:50 PM by Chase »
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shwnlyns

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Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2014, 06:32:32 PM »
A lot could be said about all this but none of it seem reassuring, even to a casual player with no tournament intentions. Although I will note that I almost started a Warriors of Chaos army because the Chaos Knights are a cheap unit to buy and many points to field, but reading forums and whatnot it seems like cavalry is not very good in this edition. And I'm sorry but if you don't like what unqualified people are saying about your company, get a PR department to say otherwise.

Grand Master Steve

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Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2014, 07:09:25 PM »
hmmm a very interesting read thanks Chase!

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2014, 07:42:16 PM »
Well thanks for passing this along, Chase.

Quote
-GW is not concerning themselves with game balance or competitive play in any respect.

Well, we knew that.  Problem is that it's awful. 

Quote
-Supplements are designed with game balance in mind.  They are designed with fun / cool in mind.  [He sighted FoB and what they did with the Escalation rules many, many times over the ~hour long convo.]

I assume you mean *not* designed with ......   still awful

Quote
-They recognize they have priced new or potential players out of their games and plan to "address it."

Well, that's nice.

Quote
-They view the ~$200 start up cost as something that will provide the average person with a month's worth of "entertainment," comparable to roughly 3 video games.

It is SO not $200. 

Quote
-They want to sell models based on coolness factor, not on price tag.  Cited an example where they reduced the price of WHFB cavalry models to 25 bucks (from 45) and there was absolutely no change in volume. (which, to be fair, IS a valid point.  when it comes to lots of model miniatures, if people want it, they're going to buy it.  at some point everyone will begin to consider price, but that number is different from every person.)

But the problem is that I want to buy on price tag.  We're talking about "price elasticity" (in demand) here.  I'll grant for some things the price elasticity may be very low.  But I know I didn't buy 2 riptides, because they were $86.  I've said often that if they were $66, I would have bought 2.  It's not that I don't have the money, so much as the price offends me.  But then people went and bought $115 wriath knights, so what do I know.  BUt those wraith knights are also largely why I didn't buy eldar modles to ally to my Tau....I've always liked wraithlords, but wraith knights make them sorta pointless.   (and I think they're too big, too humanoid, and too expensive)

Chase

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Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2014, 07:48:55 PM »
I corrected a few typos.  Sorry, was typing sort of fast'ish.
"In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it."
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Chase

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Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2014, 07:52:16 PM »
Quote
-GW is not concerning themselves with game balance or competitive play in any respect.

Well, we knew that.  Problem is that it's awful.
 

I think the nicest part is that I've now heard it directly from the horses mouth AND I was advised to pass it on.

Instead of being pretty damn sure they don't care, now we know for sure that this isn't a focus at all.

I wish this was common knowledge so the community could get to work on a generally accepted, comprehensive, "tournament" document.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 07:56:08 PM by Chase »
"In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it."
- Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

shwnlyns

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Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2014, 08:10:49 PM »
Quote
-GW is not concerning themselves with game balance or competitive play in any respect.

Well, we knew that.  Problem is that it's awful.
 

I think the nicest part is that I've now heard it directly from the horses mouth AND I was advised to pass it on.

Instead of being pretty damn sure they don't care, now we know for sure that this isn't a focus at all.

I wish this was common knowledge so the community could get to work on a generally accepted, comprehensive, "tournament" document.


Yea, it does seem kinda necessary for game balance, and while I realize tournament play is not their concern, they should at least try to balance the game. Why would anyone be interested in playing a game the creators have no intention of balancing or caring at all how it is played, just how cool it looks. And I really think it sucks that they ask independent store owners to pass word along because they are too lazy? cheap? to have their own PR division. They restrict what you can stock shelves with, ban independent online sales, then ask you to send their word along. What's up with that. 

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2014, 08:38:42 PM »
Quote
-GW is not concerning themselves with game balance or competitive play in any respect.

Well, we knew that.  Problem is that it's awful.
 

I think the nicest part is that I've now heard it directly from the horses mouth AND I was advised to pass it on.

Instead of being pretty damn sure they don't care, now we know for sure that this isn't a focus at all.

I wish this was common knowledge so the community could get to work on a generally accepted, comprehensive, "tournament" document.

Sure, agreed. And if that's what it takes for people to finally be on board with rewriting things, then great.

Though, if it's not balanced for competitive play, it's not balanced for casual play either, is it?  It doesn't matter what he takes, my ork buddy can't really beat my tau, and that's with just a plain jane, not min maxed list. 

Chase

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Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2014, 08:41:27 PM »
I'd definitely prefer it be otherwise.  Like, how tough would it be for Jervis or whoever is the top dog designer guy to write a little blurb in a White Dwarf or for the website or something explaining exactly what it is that they're trying to do?

I'm just happy to have heard it.

Really, it just reinforces what we've been trying to do for a long time.  Tweak events (tournaments and otherwise) to our liking and to our community.  We try to give all sorts of players the opportunity to get together and play in an organized environment.  Maybe I need to give players more of an opportunity to get together and in an unorganized environment that's not on Thursdays.
"In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it."
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Chase

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Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2014, 08:51:48 PM »
Though, if it's not balanced for competitive play, it's not balanced for casual play either, is it?  It doesn't matter what he takes, my ork buddy can't really beat my tau, and that's with just a plain jane, not min maxed list.

I agree that it's an issue.  Balancing from the top down has ALWAYS been the best approach, but apparently they don't care very much.

I do believe the stuff gets playtested a small amount, but it's probably not by anyone outside of the group dreaming up cool shit.

It's interesting that you mentioned Orks.  One of the "events" he was telling me about involved people taking a 10 man squad of whatever (presumably with a point cap or FoC restriction, he took Sternguard) and pitting it against 100 Ork boys to see how many the 10 man squad could kill before it was destroyed.  Pretty cool.  Not balanced, but pretty cool.

The difference between his group and the group of people that frequent this board is that they've got two completely different lines of thinking. 

His group of guys thinks something like, "Awesome!  I can't wait to see how my Salamander whatevers do!"  or "This is BOSS!  I've always wondered how many Orks my 10 man Immortal squad can kill on its own!"

Most people that read this board probably think something like, "I wonder what 10 man squad I can build that **IS** going to kill the 100 Orks."
"In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it."
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Grand Master Steve

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Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2014, 09:56:19 PM »
I want to play in his group.

Chase

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Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2014, 10:06:42 PM »
I want to play in his group.

I know you do.  You're exactly the type of person GW is putting out models and rules for, Mr. D.
"In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it."
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andalucien

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Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2014, 10:15:57 PM »
I think this is stuff a lot of people had already figured out for themselves.   I am glad that at least someone employed by GW is being honest about it.

That being said, I don't think this is going to work out for them.   I'm not sure there's much difference between "an imbalanced game" and "a crappy game".  I'm amazed that anyone who publishes games doesn't understand the fundamental interdependence between balance (thinking that, if you play well, your guys have a good chance to pull it out) and fun.   They are not opposites, they reinforce each other.   That's why it's called "a game" and not, I don't know, "a diorama"?

Frankly, it makes me really mad that they have these people writing the rules and just basically laughing at the people who try to play with them.  They are charging $50 for a codex and they they spent so little time on it they literally don't even REMEMBER what they wrote? 

I'm out. 

Privateer Press literally has the exact opposite take on every single thing you wrote here.  I mean, for chrissakes, they actually RUN THEIR OWN TOURNAMENTS!

By, "I'm out", I mean, I'm gonna go to 500pt tourneys and team tourneys, for as long as my models can continue to function.  But my model budget is going to Privateer henceforth.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 10:30:00 PM by andalucien »
Name:  Matthew Forsyth
Club:  Errybody in the gettin tips
Where I play: basically I only show up for tourneys or when I'm on my way up to New Hampshire to visit my folks.  I live about 45 mins from both stores, to the south.

andalucien

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Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2014, 10:32:25 PM »
Oh, and, thanks for letting us players know about this, Chase!
Name:  Matthew Forsyth
Club:  Errybody in the gettin tips
Where I play: basically I only show up for tourneys or when I'm on my way up to New Hampshire to visit my folks.  I live about 45 mins from both stores, to the south.

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2014, 10:34:57 PM »
^ this ( the longer post). I agree on every single point.