Author Topic: Escalation and Stronghold are launched!  (Read 15336 times)

the_trooper

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 2549
  • Pay where you play.
    • Email
Re: Escalation and Stronghold are launched!
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2013, 01:09:29 PM »
Vulcan megabolters can't hit fliers?  ;)

andalucien

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1180
Re: Escalation and Stronghold are launched!
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2013, 01:25:18 PM »
I disagree with a direction y'all are going here...

So, due to greater and greater permissiveness and mix&matching with less restrictions, "invincible units" started to proliferate as the new "sharp edge" of army evolution.  Most armies lacked effective tools to make a game out of it when faced with an essentially unkillable unit.

There's two ways you one could address this...

A. "De-escalate":  make it so that the unkillable units can't exist
B. "Escalate":  come out with something that can obliterate anything automatically, even these formerly unkillable units.  (this is what GW is doing, whether intentionally or not).

Both might solve the problem on the surface, but there is a difference in terms of what happens after that.

with option A, games go back to what they were before.
with option, B, you get games like this (PLEASE watch this everyone):
http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/12/06/welcome-to-the-new-6th-edition/

Now, there is no competitive imbalance in this game in terms of who will win or lose the game.  It was a very close game.  But that's not the only metric we should be using to evaluate whether the Revenant titan is a desirable solution to the "unkillable unit" issue. 

In this game, the Revenant killed both armies by itself.  The only other model that was really relevant or did anything was Belakor, he possessed the Revenant to shoot at its own army.  The other models could really have been anything, their only role was to get removed by the Revenant.

This game might have been (probably was) an extreme example.   But can you see how, even if an extreme solution like D weapons solve a problem, it's possible that they might be a detriment to what we have been getting out of the game overall?


----
aside:

I think that "non-degeneracy" was a key reason for why I originally started getting interested in 40k and less interested in Magic: The Gathering.  I started to feel after a while that very few games of M:TG constructed were REAL GAMES.  It was just sort of a contest of who could get their own broken thing off first.  If you brought what you just thought was an "interesting" constructed deck, which didn't capitalize on some sort of recursive abusive mechanic, and you played against a competitive deck, you might not even get to cast any spells or do ANYTHING.   If I'm going to put some free time into a game, I'd like there to be a really good chance that there'd be a lot of back-and-forth, nitty gritty, small conflicts that add up to a back-and-forth story - kind of like what happens in a well balanced board game, only with personalization. 

It used to be that even if you brought a very fluffy army, you would at least usually get to move your stuff, shoot your cool models, kill some stuff, etc.  You might get tabled in the end, but at least you got to PLAY a real game.

It seems like 40k has been getting less and less like that.  It's not up to me of course, but I hope that the community comes together and forms a ruleset that makes tournaments more like tournaments more like they were before during 5th and early 6th.
Name:  Matthew Forsyth
Club:  Errybody in the gettin tips
Where I play: basically I only show up for tourneys or when I'm on my way up to New Hampshire to visit my folks.  I live about 45 mins from both stores, to the south.

MM3791

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1124
Re: Escalation and Stronghold are launched!
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2013, 01:32:30 PM »
I saw the Frontline battle report, it was a terrible matchup to begin with. Read the comments on that link and you will see what I'm talking about.

Also the guys at Frontline didn't use anything from Stronghold Assault, both Escalation and Stronghold Assault are meant to be played together.

the_trooper

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 2549
  • Pay where you play.
    • Email
Re: Escalation and Stronghold are launched!
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2013, 01:37:35 PM »
40k has lacked the balance you are mentioning for a while.

From time to time, I'll play 40k against Rick. He will bring his tournament list (at the time I'm thinking his 5th edition Necrons) and I'll bring my fluffy Death Guard list. A fluffy Death Guard list (strictly subjective) contains a distinct lack of vehicles as Mortarion taught to rely on your bolter and battle brothers to see you through and Nurgle generally plays havoc on anything mechanical as rust and rot are not what an engine needs.

Guess who wins? The flying circus of Necrons.

Now the thing is, this is back when the Chaos codex got a buff by 6th edition. It only became a little closer when I brought dual heldrakes.

If I can bring Skabby to the table, I would feel better about those D weapons and even codex Eldar and codex Tau stuff. The worst thing Chaos has is heldrakes, a $74 flyer which competes with some of Chaos' best FOC choices, it's good but when it's gone, it's gone.

GW forced the escalation with codex creep. What I'm suggesting is that these new skew units might actually force a new meta direction. Skew lists can be bad but also can be beaten they also help shift the meta a bit and when the meta changes, it's not always a bad thing.

MM3791

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1124
Re: Escalation and Stronghold are launched!
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2013, 01:51:22 PM »
Check out this review of Stronghold Assault.. looks like a lot of great combos to deal with SD Titans. Void Shield seems very cool. http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/12/stronghold-assault-wealth-of.html

andalucien

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1180
Re: Escalation and Stronghold are launched!
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2013, 02:23:11 PM »
I haven't read stronhold assault yet, but it sounds like it has some interesting stuff.  If it does improve the fortifications rules, that would be great, cause those rules were not very good.

But anyway... yeah... I'm sure that especially with the new expansions, you can take very specific things that will fight back at something like a Revenant Titan.  That doesn't address the problem in my opinion.  If you DON'T bring one of those specific things (like, you try to bring an army you built a couple of years ago out of the closet), your army just gets blown off the table in two turns.  Didn't used to be that way.
Name:  Matthew Forsyth
Club:  Errybody in the gettin tips
Where I play: basically I only show up for tourneys or when I'm on my way up to New Hampshire to visit my folks.  I live about 45 mins from both stores, to the south.

andalucien

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1180
Re: Escalation and Stronghold are launched!
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2013, 02:42:36 PM »
Also, chase, I did go to the MegaBattle last year.  It was fun, but it's something TOTALLY different than regular games.  In fact, I would call it less a game at all than an exhibition / organized model show-off.  I mean there was the guy that brought the $2000 Eldar Phantom titan which never got to do anything, it showed up, "disappeared" when shot at (being a phantom), and then then game ended on turn 3.  This was all OK because balanced gameplay isn't the point at an event like a MegaBattle.  Even gameplay isn't really the point, because you're waiting for everyone else to go, you are only playing (moving models, rolling dice) for a very small percentage of the time you are there.
Name:  Matthew Forsyth
Club:  Errybody in the gettin tips
Where I play: basically I only show up for tourneys or when I'm on my way up to New Hampshire to visit my folks.  I live about 45 mins from both stores, to the south.

MM3791

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1124
Re: Escalation and Stronghold are launched!
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2013, 03:00:10 PM »
I haven't read stronhold assault yet, but it sounds like it has some interesting stuff.  If it does improve the fortifications rules, that would be great, cause those rules were not very good.

But anyway... yeah... I'm sure that especially with the new expansions, you can take very specific things that will fight back at something like a Revenant Titan.  That doesn't address the problem in my opinion.  If you DON'T bring one of those specific things (like, you try to bring an army you built a couple of years ago out of the closet), your army just gets blown off the table in two turns.  Didn't used to be that way.

Yea I recommend you look at Stronghold Assault before making a final judgment, the real test will be what two armies both with d-weapons and a smattering of fortifications (and v-shields) will look like. V-shields can defend against Str D weapons!

GW is definitely a model company, and the way to sell models is to give it powerful rules. No disagreement there.


Sir_Prometheus

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1573
    • Email
Re: Escalation and Stronghold are launched!
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2013, 03:56:52 PM »
......

There's two ways you one could address this...

A. "De-escalate":  make it so that the unkillable units can't exist
B. "Escalate":  come out with something that can obliterate anything automatically, even these formerly unkillable units.  (this is what GW is doing, whether intentionally or not).
.....

I agree with basically everything Forsyth has said here. 

I don't like playing screamerstars because they are unfun, not necessarily because I lose......I beat them often enough. But it's a dumb game that is random as hell.

I know that I will have even less fun against D weapons.  It doesn't really matter if I wind up winning, I am quite sure that having to pick up whole units (and I really like big, expensive units) from one shot will be very unfun for me.

It may be a cure, but we avoid cures that are worse than the disease.

Please don't think that GW is putting out these books because they improve the game.  First of all, GW has no idea what improves this game.  But they're only doing this because no one was buying their $200 models.

I am very open to using Stronghold rules.  At least some of these rules should have been in the main book to start with.  But not anything from there with D weapons.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 04:01:55 PM by Sir_Prometheus »


King of the Elves

  • Guest
Re: Escalation and Stronghold are launched!
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2013, 04:32:42 PM »
To start off, I HATE the idea of super heavies or anything "that big" being in 40K. It's stupid, in my opinion, and just a reason for GW to sell $100+ dollar tanks and models.

 To give you an example, I am now seriously considering buying a Eldar titan. Damn you GW

MM3791

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1124
Re: Escalation and Stronghold are launched!
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2013, 04:48:31 PM »
Unfortunately Stronghold Assault has been SOLD OUT at both BG locations :(

MM3791

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1124
Re: Escalation and Stronghold are launched!
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2013, 05:18:00 PM »
This is the best review for both books that I've seen by far.. it explains why the forts are actually better and cheaper then the super heavies. The Void Shield Network gives you the ability to neutralize incoming Str D weapons, basically giving protection to your army like the Gungan Shield Generator from Star Wars.

See the in depth review and tactica here http://cadiascreed40k.blogspot.com/2013/12/escalation-and-stronghold-assault-game.html

Sir_Prometheus

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1573
    • Email
Re: Escalation and Stronghold are launched!
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2013, 05:43:53 PM »
So....you're trying to sell is on it by invoking Jar-jar?  :/

I don't much care that void shields balance out D weapons. D weapons just really shouldn't be a thing.

MM3791

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1124
Re: Escalation and Stronghold are launched!
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2013, 06:14:11 PM »
So....you're trying to sell is on it by invoking Jar-jar?  :/

I don't much care that void shields balance out D weapons. D weapons just really shouldn't be a thing.

I'm not selling anything dude, just trying to offer helpful advice. If you don't like the D weapons then go play warmachine. The game changes all the time, no point in complaining.