The main problem with them is they pay too much for heavy weapons. Other than that, they're pretty great.
Tell me, do you use special characters that have an alternate to combat tactics? Cuz Combat Tactics is pretty awesome.
no i use generic Ultramarines. No special charecter to displace CombatTactics because that would not make them Ultra Marines any more. 5pts for a Plasma cannon doesnt seem over priced to me. Missile Launchers and Multi Meltas are free so how is that expensive?
Because you have to have the full 10 man squads to get them. But I was mostly talking about Devastator squads. On tac squads they're good.
Uhhh....masses of tac squads work
Bike troops work
Infiltrating Th/SS termies work
Heavy tank shooting works
Sternguard as scoring works
People LOVE techmarines now
The Vanilla Marine Tactical Squads are the Worst Troops in the Game for their points. A 10 man squad before any upgrades or Heavy weapons is 170 points 30 points less than a Terminator squad. Give them a Rhino they cost more than your 5 man Terminator Squad at 205 and while they are moving only 2 guys get to fire.
They're better than CSM, even with the 3 pt difference. ATSKNF is HUGE. They also get better guns, bette rtransports, and combat squadding.
Terminators, generically, across multiple different codexes, are really pretty bad. I say that as a GK player that has access to 40 pt termies, that are troops, vs ~22 pt Strikes. I would usually rather have the strikes, thank you. I've tried using GKT due to helldrakes, it's really not great. Termies really only work charging out of a LR, I've decided, and that's an entirely different ball game.
10 tac marines are a lot more useful than 5 termies, is what I'm saying, particularly since we're really talking 10 tacs + a rhino.
Bike troops are ok but even then they are expensive to put on the field and they lack all the nice tools that Ravenwing has and are just as susceptible to plasma and missiles only getting a 5+ cover if they moved and are terrible in assault.
When would you not move them? Don't assault with them, duh, that's not what they're for.
Infiltrating Termies cost 395 points to begin with Shrike is 195 points you lose combat tactics and gain fleet. You have to go second to be able to assault with them on your first player turn and the enemy gets a free round of shooting into them unless you have them completely out of LOS and even then they probably will have something to take care of them. They are either going to be Dead or severely hampered to try and assault then. they are too big of a target and worth too much.
Well, this is really an indictment against death stars, which I would mostly agree with (there are a few that work, still, like Draigowing and DE beast packs). But still, this is thing good players do sometimes, I've seen it be successful.
Heavy tank shooting you need to elaborate on this one for me because I figure you mean putting 3 Predators on the table. I could be wrong they just don't pump out the shots you need to do anything or they get too expensive.
120 pts for an AV 13 front tank with two lascannons and an autocannon. That's pretty useful againt most targets and it's quite pts efficient.
Thunderfire Cannons are Decent they are a hit or miss in the literal sense. You have them they work great on mass infantry but they don't work on elite troops or vehicles and sometimes they just whiff.
Here's where I star to feel that we don't use the same words to mean the same things. Hit or miss? You mean like everything in this game that rolls dice to hit? It's 4 blasts for a lousy 100 pts, it's all T 7 and you get a free techmarine in the bargain. That's pretty sweet. I suppose it's favorit targe is indeed Orks but it will work just fine on marines, too. And the game is all about hordes recently, haven't you heard?
Pro players love thunderfire cannons.
But you're naming units that do well we have nothing to really support them.
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Except for the thunderfire cannons, the predators, the tac marines that are semi-good at everything, the melta and plasma wielding bikes, the storm talons and storm ravens that is about twice the air support most armies get. All of which I've taken pains to tell you why they're good.
Look, we all make choices when making a list. You can weight a list in any particular direction. Yes, when you take a predator, that's one less thunderfire you can take, and vice versa. But both are really good choices.
The vanilla SM codex isn't perfect. Basic tac marines look a little expensive compared to Grey hunters and Dark Angels, and their devastators pay too much for the cool guns. But they have really good list of really extensive tools to accomplish almost any sort of task, and the basic troop is useful in almost all situations, and that'sa great thing. There are very, very few units that are just outright bad.
Good players aren't usually looking for the "maximal" unit, that is overpowering in a particular aspect, not necessarily things that are super points efficient compared to other armies (though both things are good). They're looking for tools that let them deal with any particular situation, and let them accomplish the goals of the game, mostly grabbing objectives. Vanilla SM marines have those tools, a lot of them.
They'll get a codex cuz they're space marines, but they don't especially need one.
